What drafting the Declaration of Independence might have looked like.

This is the second part of a two-part series. The subject is this comment below.

Correction…true socialism has never been tried….the best they could do was state capitalism. chuq


In Part 1, we went over the comments I left on lobotero‘s post. Here we consider the following.

What Is The Ethical Difference Between True Socialism and True Capitalism?

After I stopped responding to lobotero‘s replies, I wondered how others had answered lobotero‘s assertion. This is not my response, but here is a pretty good response. Here Jay Chappie answers the question in bold print.

Jay Chappie

If true Socialism has never been implemented, as many Socialists say, isn’t it a huge coincidence that all governments that tried to implement it failed?

I think what you really mean is complete socialism. A completely socialist society.

But I would in turn ask you for an example of a completely capitalist society. I’ll save you the trouble. None exist. There is no example of a successful completely capitalist society.

What do you suppose that means?

from => https://www.quora.com/If-true-Socialism-has-never-been-implemented-as-many-Socialists-say-isnt-it-a-huge-coincidence-that-all-governments-that-tried-to-implement-it-failed

“What do you suppose that means?” Well, we will get to that, but first let’s deal with lobotero‘s last reply (see Part 1).’

lobotero did not like my analogy where I compared Socialist society with ant colonies, beehives, and wasp nests. He argued that “the hives sole purpose is to keep the queen ‘happy’.” That is not true. The purpose of an ant colony, a beehive, or a wasp nest seems to center on reproduction. That requires feeding the queen and keeping her healthy enough to lay egg after egg after egg after egg….. One would think most Liberal Democrats would think that a form of abuse, not keeping a queen happy. 🤔

Of course, in this case the “queen” is an insect, not a tyrant that the “workers” must keep happy. Do Liberal Democrats understand that? Perhaps not. Why don’t Liberal Democrats understand the problems with true Capitalism and true Socialism?

  • Capitalism depends upon the right of the individual to own property. That means the individual gets to own the fruits of his labor and dispose of his property as he or she believes appropriate. “True” Capitalism would require 100 percent private property. That means no one funds the government. Of course, that won’t work, and what a horror for Liberal Democrat elites! Anarchy would prevail.
  • Socialism abolishes the individual’s right to private property. The state has ownership of everything. Everything everyone produces immediately becomes the property of the state, supposedly so it can be used by the state to accomplish purposes defined solely by the state. “True” Socialism would require 100 percent of all property to be under the control of the state. That mean none of us would have anything of our own. Does anybody want that? Well, until the peasants revolted, maybe the people in charge of this despotism would like it.

What is the problem with True Capitalism? Why must we have a government? When given the opportunity, we abuse each other’s rights. Our Declaration of Independence deals with that problem. That document says we need a government to protect our God-given rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Therefore, we each have an obligation to contribute to the maintenance of a government that protects our rights.

What is the problem with True Socialism? Why do each need to own something? When the state becomes the owner of all property, we each become totally dependent upon the state. Whether we live depends upon the will of those who govern. Whether we retain our liberty depends upon the will of those who govern. Whether we have the ability to pursue our own definition of happiness depends upon the will of those who govern.

Under a Socialist regime, the state tries to replace God. Instead of protecting the rights given to us by God, the state defines our “rights” and determines what rights it wants us to have. In practice that means we have the “right” to treat those who govern us as gods.

So, why do people support Socialism and reject the idea of limited government, the type of government the founders of our nation envisioned. As near as I can tell, the problem seems to be one of humility. It takes humility to admit that Creation is our Lord’s work, that each of us belong to Him. It takes humility to accept the fact that our neighbors have the God-given rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. And it takes humility to accept the fact that we don’t have the right to use the government to mold the character of our neighbors so that they will accept our personal vision of Utopia.

Does that sound absurd? How could Socialism appeal to a personal vision of Utopia? That is what Identity Politics is all about. With Identity Politics Liberal Democrats hope to divide and conquer us. Contemplate all the different identity groups based upon race, gender, ethnic group, disabilities, age, religious choice, and so forth. Observe all the promises Liberal Democrats have made to each group. Then consider the fact that it is all a ruse. Liberal Democrats will never keep all those promises because they cannot. Some of our political leaders may want us to treat them like gods, but all they are is prideful men and women playing at being God.

We can easily lose the proper perspective. We can forget that only God can be God. Instead of trying to perceive Creation as God sees it, we can see our self as the center of the universe, but that is foolish.

Psalm 8:3-8 New American Standard Bible

When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have set in place;
What is man that You think of him,
And a son of man that You are concerned about him?
Yet You have made him a little lower than God,
And You crown him with glory and majesty!
You have him rule over the works of Your hands;
You have put everything under his feet,
All sheep and oxen,
And also the animals of the field,
The birds of the sky, and the fish of the sea,
Whatever passes through the paths of the seas.

God has been good to us, but we still must remember His two commands.

Matthew 22:36-40 New American Standard Bible

36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 Upon these two commandments hang the whole Law and the Prophets.”

When we love God with all our heart, all our soul, and all our mind, we let God be our God. We think less of our self and more of Him, and we obey Him. Then we love our neighbor as we love our self. Instead using other people to make a Utopia for our self, we serve others, and we use the government to protect our neighbors’ God-given rights to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

Additional References


This post is one of the “OF TWISTED WORDS” series. For a list of “OF TWISTED WORDS” posts, see OF TWISTED WORDS => FEMINISM – Citizen Tom.


  1. There are so many well-loved quasi-socialist programs in America … public education … the highway system … the safety nets …the postal service … the military … to name a few … Americans seem to be drawn to socialist oriented programs … not the outliers and the complainers and the super conservatives or their treasonous kin, but real Americans .. bread and butter Americans …and this statement, ” It takes humility to accept the fact that our neighbors have the God-given rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.” is true but it is something that most radical right wing conservatives cannot comprehend fully because they act like liberals couldn’t possibly be their neighbors and the only people deserving of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness are their own deranged kind. Too bad, right wingers … America is a two-party nation for the time being and will be a two-party nation until you can get your much-wished-for dictator in power and changes it all.

    1. The postal service was intended to provide a communications system within the USA. Private carriers like FedEX, UPS, and Amazon have been much more cost efficient. The Internet has almost broken the USPS monopoly.

      The military is not a means of production. The military is means of destruction. So, it is debatable that military forces have any relationship to Socialism. Private military forces have existed and still exist. From time to time our defense agencies hire them for special missions. Generally, however, we avoid using mercenaries because of concerns over their loyalty.

      Our public education system is now practically owned by teachers’ unions. So, public education is increasingly more about indoctrinating children into the beliefs of hard-core Liberal Democrats than it is the 3R’s. The public schools do not respond well to parental concerns, like providing a good education.

      Our Interstate highway system is actually constitutional, but the founders use to fund such infrastructure with tolls. That way, if the users did not want or like what the politicians had bought the bonds that they used to finance it would not get paid off. That meant people thought twice about buying those bonds. Have you ever sat for hours in traffic jams every day?

      Note that I have not attacked the right of the Democratic Party to exist. I have pointed out defects in their political agenda.

      1. I have been in the military twice and I can assure that it is definitely not a democratic system. The authority is final and comes from the top down through a strict chain of command and the laws in the uniform code of military justice are not arguable and the status of every member of the military is that they are the “Property” of the government until discharged. If it isn’t a socialist system I can tell you for sure that it is not a democracy — but its mission is to protect the democracy. Explain this to me.

        1. The military is not a type of government. The military is an arm of our government. Because our military answers to an elected leadership, we are able to give it the mission of protecting our republic.

  2. This was well written Tom and I agree completely that those that Team Socialism needs humility and that it really is akin to Atheism with the state replacing God. I also think the constant propaganda people are fed from schooling age on about the evils of Capitalism really warps the thinking process so pro Socialists come to believe their position is one of morality which is tough to dissuade.

    My niece was like that until she went to college in Ireland and experienced all the joys of socialized medicine. She’s practically MAGA now!

      1. It was. She found out how difficult it is to get an appointment for some routine things and getting access to what should be common medication.

        1. That was a good experience. In a way it is a shame we don’t send all our young people overseas to get semester or a year of college in another country. I expect the experience would give most of them a better appreciation of this country.

          1. And I am assuming that the countries you are referring to are Russia, North Korea, Hungary, Cuba and all the other countries with dictatorial governments.

  3. Tom,

    Your following comment is spot on

    “Socialism has been tried repeatedly. It does not work. Every time the government acquires the power to redistribute other people’s wealth it eventually abuses it. Moreover, people don’t have much incentive to work if they cannot keep the fruits of their labor.”

    On the issue of incentives and motivations, the best way to rid socialism Utopian dreams from a person is to have them experience working on a production line alongside a slacker while working hard and experience knowing that the slacker is getting the same pay as he or she is because of Socialism..

    That is just one of many reasons why Socialism kills incentives and motivations in both public or private industry or services, and that is why it never has or will work successfully over a period of time.

    Regards and goodwill blogging.

    1. Unless you are totally blind, socialist influences have been a part of the American paradigm for at least two centuries now and it seems to be working just fine in everybody’s eyes except for the radical conservative factions who would rather have us governed in the image of Putin or Orban.

      1. John,

        Thanks for your comment.

        I can see your vision and point of view based on the USA current National Debt amount now at 31 trillion dollars and rising every minute of every day.

        Regards and goodwill blogging.

        1. As long as we are fools who believe that we can solve all the needs of every country on earth and as long as we consider ourselves to be the military police for the entire planet that debt is going to continue to rise and rise and rise exponentially until we waken one sweet day and discover that we are in the midst of Weimar style inflation.

          1. You actually believe that your vote counts for anything anymore? I believe the entire voting scheme is a smoke screen to make the citizens believe they are still living in a democratic republic and thereby to quell what would otherwise be massive civil unrest. Get rid of the electoral college and I will have a little faith in the voting system once again. Make the entire system a balloted referendum so that everyone can have a voice,

          2. John,

            Your first comment, “You actually believe that your vote counts for anything anymore? “
            Frankly, I used to believe the same as you.
            However, the last presidential election outcome proved the truth over the “Big Lie.” according to Trump haters.

            Same with your second comment: “Get rid of the electoral college and I will have a little faith in the voting system once again”

            Then I checked into the reasons of our founders for requiring the electoral college is to prevent large localized populations to be allowed to decide elections would cause divisiveness in States with smaller populations.
            States that believe their interests are being ignored and the result in these States would drive these smaller population States to “lose faith” in a union of 50 States.

            Once they lose faith, they may decide to succeed from the 50 State union because they believe their needs are opposite or detrimental to their interests.
            Same as what could lead to a repeat repeat Civil War experienced in USA history.

            Thanks for your comments.

            Regards and goodwill blogging.

          3. The point of the electoral college is to keep the country from be divided. That is a tall order. Civil wars happen because we naturally divide into competing factions.

            The point of the electoral college is to limit the effects of factionalism. Do you understand the meaning of majoritarian tyranny?

          4. Compared to all the other massive spending on such things as support for ukraine and all the other give aways we send to foreign countries, the social security and medicare programs are small frogs in the pond. I am sure the radical right wing would love to get their hands on the social security funds and the postal retirement funds and throw the poor who depend on their social security pittance under the bus. I am however, much in favor of refusing to grant illegals social security benefits.

          1. Tom,

            Perhaps Socialists will change their mind when super inflation occurs which for example would change the price of a loaf of bread to be $50?

            Same as what occurred to numerous other Nations in history when traders “lost faith. “In the value of their currencies???

            Regards and goodwill blogging.

      2. The first manifestation of Socialism in the USA probably concerned things like public educations and libraries. The notion of mass education is relatively new. However, the invention of the printing press provided instructional materials relatively cheaply.

        One of the reasons public education caught on is that some Protestants saw public education as a way of out financing Catholic Schools. Later many states passed what were called Blaine Amendments to prevent parents from using public funds to help pay for the education of their children in religious schools. In other words, government officials have the right to secularize the education of other people’s children.

        1. I am sure that the “Many States” who passed these “Blaine” amendments did not pass them without the input and help from the elected representatives in the various state houses so this did not all come down as a dictatorial government proclamation …I am sure there was debate and discussion by the elected representatives who were responsible for these amendments so, in effect, the will of the people was served in getting these laws and amendments onto the books… so let us not be accusing the government of secularizing anything .. because the people’s representatives were the ones who came up with these things …If you want to persist in arguing that this was government secularizing education you have to remember that if the citizens were not pleased, they could have voted for something else instead. And while we are at it, I am sure there were just as many Republicans involved in bringing these things about as there were democrats. I know this because when I was in public school, we had both democrats and republicans on the school boards and none of them seemed to have a problem with the system and it worked well …

  4. Part of the problem is discomfort with personal responsibility. It’s easier to ask the government to make a law and force all people to help the needy than it is for each of us to reach out to one person in need and provide the help that person needs. If the government establishes a tax, collects our money, and forms a bureaucracy to oversee the needs of the poor, the unfortunate, the disabled, then we can all feel that we did our part. We can drive past the beggars and ignore them, confident that the government will help them. We can overlook the statistics about poverty and need in our country, confident that the government is fixing the problem. Of course, our government never won the “war on poverty.” It raised taxes, collected the money, formed a bureaucracy of social work, and poverty still exists. The so-called “robber barons” like Rockefeller and Carnegie did far more to help the poor and underprivileged than the government ever accomplished. Yes, we need a government to restrain greed and other human problems. But a socialist government creates problems without solving problems; limited government opens avenues for successful capitalists to help their neighbors. J.

    1. Government welfare is basically a highly expensive money laundering scheme. Liberal Democrats funnel billions into government jobs. Then they require those government workers to join unions, and those unions donate money and provide workers for Democrat campaigns.

      1. Government welfare is intended to help people down on their luck … the kind of people that right wing idiots would desire that there be none of in their company –especially those who are not white.

        1. Private charity works better. Politicians just use government welfare to buy votes. That is why government welfare tends to make people dependent.

          1. I have seen how private charity works. It works on massive contributions to keep it afloat and it pays out egregiously high salaries to those who administer it and their qualifications for benefits is often so stringent that few, if anyone can qualify for benefits. Private charities spend more on advertising and administrative expenses than they do on helping the needy. And, as for churches, when I was bankrupt back in 1978, most of the churches I asked for help told me something on the order of, “We have nothing to give you but we will pray for you. I challenge you to be penniless with no hope of work and Four mouths to feed to subsist on prayers.

          2. We did not have government charity in 1978.

            When people think the government has taken over, people stop contributing to private charities. Until you are flat broke, the government won’t give you anything.

            When I got out of the military, I was out of work for months, draining my savings. I eventually adapted and got a job, but I still remember the experience and dread repeating it.

    2. If the current crop of crazy right wing conservatives get control of the government, everybody will be getting their chance at the beloved conservative idea of personal responsibility. I can see the day — under their control — when the population will be handling their own medical care at home, their own education at home, out digging trenches for their own roads and highways, cutting their own wood for heating, doing their own everything with no government involvement or interference at all. That would surely be the right wing ideal of a government so small it could fit into a bathtub would it not? It would also be the most oppressive government on the face of the earth.

        1. The entire conservative mantra (Ideology) is based on non-interference by the government in personal lives and on self-reliance sans government intervention. But in practice their way of governing is more intrusive and more controlling than any system of government you can imagine save for oligarchy and outright dictatorship. But Trump was on the way to correcting that.

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