Karl Friedrich Lessing (1808–1880)
Here we begin the first part of a two-part series.
The Debate
Since we human beings never stop squabbling, I sometimes feel like that old fellow in the picture above. However, I know the wars won’t end after I am gone. It just that I sometimes wish that my crusades would end. I suppose that’s why our Lord gave us a sense of humor. From time-to-time we all need a good laugh, and this line gave me one.
Correction…true socialism has never been tried….the best they could do was state capitalism. chuq
http://lobotero.com/2022/09/29/civics-the-lost-knowledge/#comment-249879
What is the appropriate response to that? Google “true socialism.” That will give you about 549,000 results (0.42 seconds). Even “true socialism has never been tried” will give you about 3,430 results (0.41 seconds). So, chuq’s (lobotero‘s) argument is a common one.
How did I respond?
True socialism actually has been tried, and it works well for ants, bees, some kinds of wasps,…. Socialism does not work for people.
How would we make true Socialism work for people? Well, the solution seems to be to indoctrinate the “workers” to behave like ants, bees, some kinds of wasps,…… Would that be true Socialism? Would it work? Well, the self-selected vanguard of the proletariat seem to like it, and it is what they keep trying to do.
http://lobotero.com/2022/09/29/civics-the-lost-knowledge/#comment-249896
lobotero replied by insisting true socialism had never been tried on a national level. So, I observed the following.
It has not been attempted in the USA, but we have started down that road, and sensible people keep fighting Socialism.
However, Socialism has been tried repeatedly. Even the Pilgrims tried Socialism at Plymouth Rock. Fortunately for us, after half of them starved, they gave up on the idea. Others, Communists and the Nazis, have demonstrated what happens when Socialism is allowed to progress on a much larger scale. Socialism produced tyrants such as Hitler, Stalin, and Mao Zedong, tens of millions of dead, and much sorrow.
The problem is what happens when we give our leaders the power required to redistribute our wealth. They abuse the power.
http://lobotero.com/2022/09/29/civics-the-lost-knowledge/#comment-249896
lobotero partly agreed, but he persisted.
They do abuse the power on that we agree…..sorry but all those are not socialism…again only in meager minds. chuq
http://lobotero.com/2022/09/29/civics-the-lost-knowledge/#comment-249906
So, I went back to my ant/bee/wasp analogy.
Wasps, ants, and bees don’t need a vanguard of the proletariat. They just do what they do by instinct (https://citizentom.com/2015/09/09/ant-democracy-how-do-ants-vote/), but I don’t think we need to envy them. Yet, a society that looks like a society of ants seems to be what Socialists want.
http://lobotero.com/2022/09/29/civics-the-lost-knowledge/#comment-249897
lobotero still wasn’t buying it, of course.
Actually bees and ants work for a tyrant…the queen….sorry but that is not socialism…..this is getting tiresome. Have a nice evening…..chuq
http://lobotero.com/2022/09/29/civics-the-lost-knowledge/#comment-249907
Well, at least lobotero wished me a nice evening. So, I tried again.
Actually, whether it is an ant colony, a beehive, or wasp nest, the queen doesn’t exercise tyrannical power, but that misunderstanding is typical. Ants, bees, and wasps respond to their instincts, not tyranny.
As a practical matter, an ant colony, a beehive, and a wasp nest each represent a single body woven together by instincts, chemical scents that they release to message each other, and probably other mechanisms we still don’t know about. In this view, drones and queens serve as reproductive organs.
Is there Socialism in this country? As most people understand the word, of course, there is.
Has “true Socialism” ever been implemented? No. Because “true Socialism” is not designed to work with human beings as they exist, “True Socialism” cannot work, not even in theory. We don’t have the capacity to make it work. So, your protestations are both ironic and absurd.
Communism, on the other hand, does work up to a point. Why? Because Socialism is a political ideology designed for angels, not humans, human beings must be forced to behave in accordance with the ideals of Socialism. Hence, Marx created the vanguard of the proletariat, a tyrant class, to force the proletariat to docilely accept a Socialist economic system and starve.
http://lobotero.com/2022/09/29/civics-the-lost-knowledge/#comment-249915
Well, lobotero just doubled down.
Most people would not know a socialist if he bit them in the butt….. you are right it cannot work because the people care not for the country but rather selfish BS that does nothing to improve the nation….the hives sole purpose is to keep the queen ‘happy’…..the only absurdity is your debate on something you do not understand….chuq
http://lobotero.com/2022/09/29/civics-the-lost-knowledge/#comment-249924
Here the debate ends. Nevertheless, I think a few more things need to be said. So, I decided upon this series.
Continued
Part 2: What Is The Ethical Difference Between True Socialism and True Capitalism?
Citizen Tom
Citizen Tom 
Reblogged this on boudica.us.
Thank you!
It’s a tough job Tom, but somebody has to go around and try to slay the “socialism is awesome” demon. 🙂
One of my favorite arguments against socialism is simply poverty here in the US, which, with all of the assistance available soon begins tor resemble something much like socialism. The Gov actually will provide your housing, food, utilities, cell phone, and healthcare, provided you are smart enough to apply for all of these benefits. The huge drawback being, since they are paying your bills, they also believe they have a right to control your life and tell you what to do. Child protective services stalks you, every expense is scrutinized, and your activities are often curtailed. One cannot simply get a job or get a promotion without loosing major benefits. Just a few short months ago in my state people in transitional housing where given just 48 hours to get the vaxx and to sign an intersectionality agreement agreeing to uphold the rights of the transgendered or be put out on the street.
Many people don’t realize it, but the one group consistently provided for and controlled by the US government, is also the poorest demographic in the nation to this day, Native Americans. Socialism is actually a form of colonization, the destruction of a culture, the gentrification of those perceived as undesirables.
Great comment! Thank you.
Sadly, government “charity” has nohing to do with love. So, “charity” provided by the government cannot be charity.
What then is government “charity”? Government “charity” is designed to buy votes and to make people dependent so that those politicians can have those votes in every election.
Tom,
Here is a fairly short article that lists the four reasons Socfialis and Democracy will fail over time from an economist opinion..
https://mises.org/wire/4-reasons-why-socialism-fails#:~:text=Socialism%20fails%20because%20it%20suffers%20from%20four%20fundamental,mechanism%20in%20place%20to%20discard%20inefficient%20production%20methods.
Regards and goodwill blogging.
Good article! Thanks.
I would say that true Communism has never been tried, at least not on a national level. In the Marxist scheme, socialism was supposed to be a step toward true Communism, and somehow all the Marxist governments got stuck and that point and never advanced from socialism to communism.
In fact, Socialism was implemented in the Soviet Union, eastern Europe, Cuba, China, North Korea, and North Vietnam. It frequently led to wars and violence; it also let to people trying to escape Socialism, resulting in monuments to socialist failure such as the Berlin Wall.
I like your metaphor of ants and bees implementing socialism. Because human beings are not ants or bees, socialism does not work among us. Whenever governments try to turn us into socialist ants and bees, they run into economic downturns, lack of productivity, resistance, efforts to escape, and other forms of failure.
I look forward to your second installment. J.
Thanks for reading this post.
Has true communism ever been tried? Well, I think the primary distinction between Socialism and Communism is that Socialism is supposed to be implemented peacefully and Communism requires a violent takeover led by a vanguard.
That vanguard and the violence of a Communist revolution is supposed to fade in one big happy after the vanguard implements Socialism, but it never has. That observation concurs with your description.
So far as I can see, Socialism requires a government to own all property (all “means of production”) and to make decisions about that property–wages, prices, how much to produce, etc. But in Communism, everyone happily shares without government intervention and control. This works in a small group of like-minded individuals, so long as each of them is trustworthy, but it will never happen on a national level.
Government control, though… that is the implicit and explicit goal of those who call for socialism. J.
I could be wrong, but I think you are confusing Communism with communitarianism. Modern dictionaries make Communism seem nonviolent, but Karl Marx did not preach a nonviolent revolution.
Marx’s violent revolution was to overthrow capitalists and the powers that support them (government, church, schools, etc.).
That was to usher in a proletariat government that would be socialist. Then, as proletariat socialism spread throughout the world and became established, the government could wither away and socialism would turn into communism. The confusion comes with the way Lenin and others after him called their political parties “The Communist Party.” From a Marxist viewpoint, this was looking beyond the short-term goals to the long-term goal. From any other viewpoint, it was deception, seeking to convince people that peaceful communism would come in the short-term if those people supported his party. The reaction to this use of labels resulted in people in the United States and other free countries also calling Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, and the others “communist,” as if what they were doing would achieving a communist state when all they were providing was a violent, oppressive socialist state. J.
I commend your patience Tom in dealing with such gross ignorance in a dignified and intelligent manner. The “we’ve never tried real socialism” crowd” will never back down from that because they profoundly misunderstand (or never take in to account?) the relationship between individual freedom and a just society. Socialism is slavery to most and lucrative to the elites that run the show. It’s a profoundly immoral system of government that only leads to misery, destruction and death.
Thank you for the compliment.
I agree with your take on Socialism. I think you will see that even more clearly in part 2.
Another great, and provocative post.
Like atheists, all leftist arguments are based on logical fallacies or “facts” that are falsehoods.
For example: The term, “state capitalism”. “State capitalism” is an oxymoron, since by definition, capitalism is a free market economy based upon the Christian concept of justice, and law and order. An economy controlled by the state is the very definition of socialism. A state or regime that assumes ownership of all property and commerce is defined as communism.
Additionally, it is a lie that “true socialism” has never been tried. Lying is what leftists do because the truth about state run economies is grotesque.
One the things statists do is destroy the language. “State capitalism” is a good example of that but think of the irony. State Capitalism is supposedly a problem, but Socialism is not. Evil people are charge of State Capitalism, but good people are in charge of Socialism? What kind of fairytale is that?
In your comment, you used the proper meaning of words and simple reasoning. Those are the best ways to refute leftist fairy tales aka delusion.