Photo by Susanne Jutzeler on Pexels.com

Serious subject? I suppose so, but try to define the difference between masculine and feminine these days. The dictionary is no help. So, I won’t waste pixels posting the definitions. Instead, I will just link to the post that led to this post, describe the discussion I had there, and explain what I think a princess and her frog has to do with the feminization of the Christian church in America.

Where did this all start? I’ll Take Wrath for 200, Alex! (insanitybytes2.wordpress.com). insanitybytes22 has a nice little rant condemning someone who apparently claims to be a proud member of the male patriarchy. I am not unsympathetic, and I suppose I should have just shut up and moved on to something else, but think about what happens when a gal like insanitybytes22 vents. Some stupid guy is not content to just listen and let the lady cool off. He tries to fix her problem, and he just makes things worse.

So what did I do? I left a comment here, but that is really not the subject of this post. Here is the part that started off the discussion on the feminization of the church.

One of the things that the Bible observes is that with respect to religion men tend to follow the lead of their wives. Why? I suspect most women would understand that better than men, but my guess is that women think Christian men make better husbands, and wives are always trying to do a makeover on their husbands.

The headache with liberal churches of our era is that they are designed to make women happy, that is, they have feminized the Gospel and the Bible. So, most men want nothing to do with these churches and “their Bible,” and that is one reason why liberal churches are slowly dying. Whereas men tend to follow the lead of their wives with respect to religion, children tend imitate their fathers. Why? I don’t know, but that seems to be Biblical too.


Frankly, when I wrote that comment I had not given much thought about the matter. What does it mean to feminize the church? How do I put that thought into words? Oops! I had spoken before I had thought. Well, that got me in trouble, of course. jilldomschot responded.

I know “feminine” is the dirtiest of all dirty words to most Christian men, but I can rarely get them to define what that means. They will often claim it’s the music, and then when it turns out most praise songs are still written by men, they are “feminized” men. I honestly don’t understand the hatred men have for anything feminine. Why do they want to marry us, anyway? Has everyone gone Greek? Men are spiritual and intellectual and women are base material beings like animals? It’s a mystery to me.


When I was coming of age, the modern feminist movement was just getting going. Unlike the feminists of previous eras, modern feminists did not have simple, well defined issue on their agenda. The gals of that earlier time knew exactly what they wanted, the right to vote (Let’s skip pass the prohibitionists.). Since the feminists of the 1970’s did not have a well defined problem they were trying to solve, the saner ladies stepped aside went about getting something useful done. The nuttier ladies focused on proving women are just as good as men. How? By trying to abolish any laws that recognize differences between the sexes.

No differences between the sexes? Seriously. Well, some of the ladies were serious, and they still are. Eventually, women divided over the issue, and they fought among themselves. So, the so-called Equal Rights Amendment failed.

Why mention battles that go back to the 1970’s and 1980’s? We live in a time unique in human history. For most of history, human societies have been patriarchal. On occasion women have reigned, but that has been the rare exception, not the rule. To a large extent women have only welded power to the extent one of them was able to influence a powerful man, which has never been especially unusual.

In our day and in our country, women exercise a great deal of political, financial, and cultural power directly. Therefore, there is a tug-of-war over the character of our society. Because women now have so much power, in every sphere of our society, we struggle over whether our society will be masculine or feminine in character.

Can we find and achieve a reasonable and appropriate balance between the masculine and feminine? Not any time soon. We cannot even agree whether biological sexes actually exist and matter more than “gender choice,” Hence, just mentioning the feminization of the church aroused a lady’s ire.

Why did I have trouble putting my thoughts into words? The subject is almost taboo, especially if a man wants to talk about it. Nonetheless, we need to talk about it.

Are people talking about it? Yes. Here are some examples.

What does it mean for a church to be feminized? Since the terms masculine and feminine are so poorly defined, that is difficult to say. However, with respect to Christianity the authority of the Bible is paramount. So, let’s focus on a proper understanding of scripture. In our day, Liberal Christian churches tend to interpret scripture more loosely. What do Liberal Christian churches believe? Consider some references.

What are we supposed to glean from references such as the above? Let’s consider a comment I left for jilldomschot.

When people say the church has been feminized, that addresses the state of of the church, not who is to blame or how exactly this feminization happened.

The Bible is the revelation of God. When we read the Bible correctly, then the Bible tells us about the character of the One we must love with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind. When we impose our own desires upon the Bible, we create an idol.

What does the Liberal church believe?
— we can pick and choose from the Bible what we want to believe (discard the “myths”). This leads lots of people to become red letter Christians, and they don’t even pay much attention to those red letters.
— God is love, love, love; He will accept us exactly as we are
— Jesus was just a good, moral teacher
— Hell does not exist.
— God is into “social justice,” not justice.


All the beliefs of the Liberal Christian church are not feminine, but which are?

Consider that picture above. What is the dream of so many young women, a handsome and charming young man who will treat them like a princess? Think I am joking? Remember How Prince Charles and Lady Diana’s Wedding Became a Global Phenomenon (history.com). The ladies loved it. The guys? Not so much.

To make the church attractive to the ladies, too many pastors have turned Jesus into a frog prince, but He is God, not Prince Charming disguised as a peasant from the Palestine of 30 A.D.

Jesus did not come out of a fairytale. He came to us as a babe from heaven. He preached a message of repentance and redemption. He died on a cross for our sins. He rose from the dead. He returned to heaven, leaving behind the Holy Spirit. With the help of the Holy Spirit His apostles preached His Gospel and spread it to the ends of the world.

Jesus and His Bible tells of a just, holy, and scary powerful God. Scary! Not safe, but good. Yet Liberal Christian churches have tried to reduce Jesus to something purely happy and safe, a frog that becomes Prince Charming. A joy for a great many ladies, but a bore for most men.

What the Bible actually tells us about God may be frightening, but the truth is more ultimately more satisfying for everyone. Those who believe in and put their faith in the real Jesus go to heaven. What happens to those who don’t? Well, if you know about the real Jesus, you know He had much to say about the alternative, but you won’t hear much about in a Liberal Christian church.

Be a man. Get the whole story about Jesus. Read the Bible.

Be a woman. Learn about a man who really deserves our worship. Read the Bible.

Is feminism the sole reason for the distortion of the Bible? No. It is just a small part of the problem. How do I expect this part of the problem to get solved? Well, most such problems never actually get solved, Every generation has to learn again what past generations learned, but my guess is that for the sake of their sons mothers will debate and seek that kind of society (or community) that provides a reasonable and appropriate balance between masculine or feminine characteristics.

Will men participate in the debate? Not to a great degree. The conundrum for men is this. How does a man argue with an angry women? He doesn’t.

Proverbs 21:9 New American Standard Bible

It is better to live on a corner of a roof

Than in a house shared with a contentious woman.

I suppose in theory our forebears would have beaten an angry woman into submission, but Christian men are not supposed to do that. We can, however, set the best example we can for our sons and daughters. If we did, that would be a great improvement.


  1. Reblogged this on Faithful Steward Ministries and FSM Women's Outreach and commented:
    It is amazing how feminized (and unbiblical) even once acceptable (Hallmark for example)programing has become never mind main stream TV and commercials.

    Unfortunately the Biblical roles of men and women have been misconstrued to be something evil, i.e.. women is subject (Col 3) meaning a slave, to man while that is totally contradictory to Biblical Truth.

    Prov. 31, Ephesians 5 and 1 Peter 3 should be mandatory reading in order to obtain a marriage license. Okay so a brother can dream :).

  2. Tom,

    Touchy, touchy subject to bring up in our contemporary divisive times, yet needs to be addressed.

    In my opinion, the churches over time from a boy only exclusive, to now always seem to be populated with more women. Same as women over time seem to somehow bee guided into the role of teaching.

    Listen, my son, to your father’s instruction and do not forsake your mother’s teaching. (Proverb 1:8)

    Teaching seems leads to understandingly knowledge and wisdom.

    Perhaps that is one reason why less men may be one more factor in why more women in churches?

    Which leads back to the need for school choice or school vouchers to help more people afford to send their children to learn the wisdom and love in the bible. Yes, boys and girls both need to be taught how to teach what has been taught to them when they become parents.

    And in my experience in Boy Scout leadership associated to our community church, fathers and parents who have a child in a community organization seems to participate more with as you say,

    “We can, however, set the best example we can for our sons and daughters. If we did, that would be a great improvement.”

    As for women in my opinion being different from men, the best explanation I heard to help us understand the “perfect creations and unions of men and women I surmised in my novel is as follows.

    “No Bilqis, your question brought back a pleasant thought of a discussion I once had with a wise man about the creation of women. His belief was that when Adam slept, Yahweh also took a portion of Adam’s stony heart along with his rib to make Eve. He then perfected her heart by inserting mercy and benignity. That that is how the conjunction of male and female, although distinct and separate of masculine and feminine, became the perfect union of Yahweh’s creation.”

    Regards and goodwill blogging.

    1. @Scatterwisdom

      Interesting comment. Like the excerpt from your book.

      The male denomination of leadership has not changed, but too many don’t take the Bible seriously enough. We only gain wisdom as teachers if we teach what is right and true.

      Good reason for school choice.

  3. wisdom is an equal opportunity employer and a man or a women who trusts solely in their own gender . . . is a fool.

    Gender is a matter of the physical flesh and used mostly as a means of procreation just like all animals. . . . we are spiritual beings . . . so especially when it comes to the Creator we should be seeing things in a more spiritual manner. I think we have mostly forgotten that.

    How do we do that you ask?

    If you want to find the secrets of the (spiritual) universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.
    Nikola Tesla . . . .

    1. @pitybull1

      Well, I was with you almost to the end. When you started into energy, frequency and vibration, I am relatively certain you confused the physical with the spiritual.

      It is true that many scientists study creation in order to learn something about the Creator. Thus, scientific research can become a spiritual pursuit, but science itself does not directly reveal the spiritual. Instead, we use science to model the physical world.

      Spiritual is one of those words that is difficult to define. Why? Well, what is a spirit. Neither of us knows. Yet we would both agree that the spiritual –that God — is real.

      1. it’s complicated. science and religion both are baffled by the reality, but energy, frequency and vibration DEFINE the spiritual realm and we ourselves. It’s what we are.

        I will go further if you wish, but . . .

        1. @pitybull1

          You are welcome to do so. I have a decent understanding of science, but I don’t claim to understand the spiritual.

          As I see it, the word spiritual is not well defined so we generally don’t know what the other person is trying to say when they use the word.

          How do I think the word spiritual relates to Christianity? God is spirit. When we are spiritual, we are trying to obey Him. We are trying to see things from His point of view and do what is right in His eyes.

          The Bible is a physical thing, but it is spiritual in the sense that it tells us about God. When we read the Bible and ask God to help us understand it, He does.

          1. Now this is neither christian philosophy or anti-christian philosophy, truth or BS . . . I claim no status . . . it’s just where I happen to be on my walk at the moment.

            I believe the bible is a book of wisdom that reveals far more to us than we are willing to accept. That because of our particular church’s doctrine and the fact that we are far more concerned with our own salvation, . . . we are being held in a place where we spend our entire lives comfortably tromping on a revolving wheel that keeps us in the fold, while at the same time holds us back from ever venturing beyond that revolving wheel. We claim to live by faith and we feel good about ourselves, but is faith the ultimate goal for humanity?

            “Now faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1) . . . but seeing eye to eye, being face to face with the living God, would eliminate the need for faith, right? . . . but no man can see God and live . . . right?

            Time to move on, but where? How? Which way? In order to see God and live we must raise ourselves to a higher plane (or frequency)

            John 14:12: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.”

            Many scholar’s refuse to believe this piece of scripture so they make excuses, but IMO it is self explanatory. Time to wake up, get off our knees, and realize who we are.

            Now, more than ever we need to fight back against the communist enemy’s attempt to subjugate us. . . . and this battle will be won, not by demonstrating, nor by the strength of arms, but on the spiritual level by a people who know who they are, and what their reason to be on this earth, in this form, at this time, is all about.

            (Following, as simple as I have the ability to make it)

            The physical universe is but a small fraction of the limitless unknown. The earth is but a small fraction of the physical universe.

            In the beginning man was gifted with five senses in order to be able to operate in this environment. We were created by God to be caretakers over this planet, but our ability to see was greatly limited to a very small spectrum of light, so small we can hardly see anything at all.

            The remaining space, that which we cannot see is the spiritual realm. It vibrates on a higher frequency that we are locked out of. We get a glimpse from time to time, but to the average man the spirit realm remains unknown.

            This earth is ours forever, but although we inherited a heavenly paradise, we created it into the unholy hell we have today. We did it. We are the creators. We chose this. . . . why? We were deceived. . . how? Because it is vibrating on a frequency low enough for Satan and his angels to operate on after they were cast out of heaven. The reason for all this?

            In order for our planet to be free, it has to be governed by the law of duality and the ability to choose. . . good and evil working it out on a physical plane with us as the pieces in this little chess game.

            The goal of Satan is to keep us limited in our five senses. Here is where he does his best work . . . lust, murder, self centered arrogance, all sorts of malicious actions are all created within the realm of the five senses and that is what keeps us on this low vibration.

            The goal of our God is to, by our own choices, raise our consciousness beyond the traps inherent in our five senses and move upward into the lighter frequencies where we belong and where Satan has been shut out.

            Well, I won’t know if anyone gets that or not, but in the end it’s all about limiting ourselves.

          2. @pitybull1

            I don’t know anything about different realms, heaven and hell, vibrating on different frequencies. Don’t know why we should believe that.

            Nevertheless, I don’t completely disagree. What does God have in mind for us? He created everything for His glory. Salvation is something God does for us. We have to trust and love Him. We have to accept His gift.

            Think about the difference between us and God. We are finite. He is infinite in every way. We exist in an infinite universe that He created. We glorify God by becoming humble enough to accept God as our God, by loving and trusting Him.

            Humility gives us a sixth sense, the ability to perceive what others perceive. Without humility, we cannot see ourselves as God sees us. Without humility, we cannot accept the fact we need God. Without humility we don’t accept the guidance of the Holy Spirit. So, in effect, humility raises our consciousness.

          3. what i said about frequencies/vibrations is more a scientific understanding than a belief.

            We don’t need to believe in life in order to be alive . . . right? Life has no need of our belief, life just is. God just is. samo, samo.

            I interpret God as life revealing itself on a physical plane. We, as well as all life forms beneath us and above us are considered by me to be God manifested. God is not the ruler of the universe . . . God IS the universe.

            Only in religions does God exist as an entity to be feared or worshiped. It’s simple, but we love complication, right? . . . Thus the need for a thousand denominations and religious cults vying to be the true one. . . the special one . . . the chosen ones.

          4. @pitybull1

            Science does not have the tools to explore the spiritual. What science does is model cause and effect relationships. We gather observational data. We speculate on the patterns we see in the data. Then we form a hypothesis, a mathematical formula at best. Then we test our hypothesis to verify whether our model accurately and reproducibly explains what we are seeing. None of that has anything the spiritual. Science deals with things we can measure. We cannot see, hear, touch, smell, or taste the spiritual.

            Nevertheless, people believe in God. Logically, God must exist. Is logic science? No. Science is a subset of Philosophy and logic is one of the tools of Philosophy, a tool which is also used by scientists.

            A belief can either be irrational or rational. A rational belief is based upon reason and logic. We act, word and deed, based upon our beliefs. Since God made everything, including us, our beliefs about Him should be based upon reason and logic.

            Proverbs 15:33
            New American Standard Bible
            The fear of the Lord is the instruction for wisdom,
            And before honor comes humility.

            The are various verses in the Bible that relate the fear of the Lord with wisdom. I chose this one because it mentions the connection with humility.

            What does the Bible mean by fear. Well, some translations would substitute “reverence for” God for the word “fear.”

          5. I understand your definition concerning science and agree with it, but I also understand what Tesla meant when he said, “If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.”

            Your definition locks science into that very small field of vision available to the human eye. At the time I believe quantum theories are breaking free from that mini-frame and beginning to open up to the massive field of energy surrounding it. It is there where the Law Of Vibration and these other things are being studied . . .

            I predict science that refuses to go beyond that strict definition will die a slow death towards the end of the century. As will mankind itself if we refuse to rise to a higher state of consciousness.

            When it comes to God everybody seems to have their own definition. . . and usually that depends upon their teaching. The Christian usually starts with “the bible says” and goes on from there. My question is, “why would the creator of all that is, and all that ever was, and all that will ever be, leave us with a book that most people can’t even read. Illogical.

            Now I’m not knocking the bible as I have diligently studied it for years, but I feel I find a far greater connection to my God when I go into my woods and study an acorn and the giant oaks that dropped it than I do reading about Him.

            Regardless, I enjoyed the banter with you and fully realize we walk different paths, but then I am close to 80 and will probably be seeing all this soon on a first hand basis. . . . something I am actually looking forward to. 🙂

          6. @pitybull1

            My definition does not constrain science. A definition just says what a word means.

            The scientific method is a technique for gathering and verifying information about cause and effect relationships. What you are describing is a not science because it does not involve the scientific method.

          7. @pitybull1

            . My question is, “why would the creator of all that is, and all that ever was, and all that will ever be, leave us with a book that most people can’t even read. Illogical.

            I don’t know. I don’t know why He bothers with us at all. Yet what He done allows us a role in our salvation.

          8. I’m not directing this directly to you, but . . . we have been ‘saved’ for a reason and with the state of the union being in such dire straights we ALL need to know why . . . and move accordingly. It will take a hugely corporate effort effort to get this country back on it’s feet. We are spiritual beings living in organic bodies not organic bodies struggling to understand spiritual things THAT WE ALREADY KNOW. . . . right now there is a Godless Communist philosophy knocking at our door . . . what are we going to do about it?

          9. @pitybull1

            I would start with a different question. What am “I” going to do about it?

            Why that difference? There are already people busy trying to make things work the way they should work. There are already people running for public office, volunteering to be poll workers, poll observers, sending money to candidates for public office, attending school board meetings, joining and participating in political parties, and so forth. There just needs to be more of them. So, instead of waiting for some kind of answer, we each need to figure out what we can do and do it.

          10. I don’t know what you are going to do about it. How could I?

            My belief is that without major push back we will be finished as the republic we once all enjoyed. It may already be too late, but I believe we have a shot until the guns are taken from us. and then they will own us. Not that we use the guns, but that is their fear and what always happens in a communist takeover . . . guns first.

            The only hope I have is that there is a great rising up of the people and they all just say no. No to everything that has taken place this last six months . . . and the military overpowers the politically inspired general class and falls in on our side.

            were we to rise up and start an armed insurrection they will call martial law and if the military follows them we the people are toast.. . . . . I am too old to fight. I am just saying no. to the fake vaccine for now.

            We have grown fat and lazy and the left has us encircled and moving in for the kill. It will be an uphill battle for sure.

          11. @pitybull1

            I gave up trying to be a prophet who can predict the future years ago. If God wants to make me one, …. Well, that’s a different story.

            Is our country in a mess? Yep! But Jesus has already overcome the world. So, there is no point in thinking our mess as hopeless. What we have an the opportunity to do good works, glorifying the name of our Lord. Where it is darkest, even a tiny light shines brightly.

            Will our republic collapse? I don’t know, but if through my examples I cause a few people to turn to Jesus Christ that is what matters. And being a good citizen is one of the examples we are supposed to set.

          12. @pitybull1

            I have no idea why your comment went into the spam bucket. The lords of the Internet don’t like Conservatives and Christian, but I don’t know if that explains this particular instance.

            Anyway, when I get busy, I am not good about checking the spam bucket. Sorry about that.

  4. I’m not sure who you’re calling angry…IB or me. But anger doesn’t come into my responses to you. I am frustrated, however, by the inability for anyone to provide a definition of what is meant by “feminization of the church.” I didn’t know the word was being equated with feminism per se but, instead, with what happens when a church takes on feminine characteristics to the exclusion of masculine ones. It’s a word that’s bandied about and has become synonymous with a vague feeling of “all I don’t like about the modern church.” But you skirted giving a definition just as others do. Here, you provide an almost definition about churches clinging to romantic fairy tale visions of Jesus. I guess to that I would say, you must attend different churches from the ones I’ve attended over the years. This means to me that there are churches out there that aren’t preaching fairy tales…so, why not attend a different church? But otoh, I’m not sure fairy tales are feminine in nature, as they are universal to human cultures throughout history and surpass gender. They tell stories of negative versions of the sexes and how those are overcome…or lead to destruction. Sometimes, they demonstrate the sexes uniting in peace (marriage, yes, which is still not a feminine construct, as a marriage implies both sexes by its very nature). They are always morality tales. Should the story of Jesus be told as a fairy tale? God tells it that way with his story of rescuing his bride. Does it remain a story? No, and that’s what makes God’s story different from all other stories of its type. It has a real historical fulfillment. I suppose there are churches that teach Jesus as a fairy tale or a mythic construct. I wouldn’t call those churches feminized, though, as they simply aren’t Christian churches at all.

    1. @jilldomschot

      You are not angry? How do we prove that? Would it be worth the trouble? But you say you are frustrated. Well, sometimes it is difficult to perceive the difference between anger and frustration.

      Why are you frustrated? Some words defy definition. Why do you demand that I do what you cannot do?

      Consider the problem that a Supreme Court justice had when he wanted to define pornography.

      I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that. — Potter Stewart (1915–1985), associate justice of the Supreme Court from 1958 to 1981 (from https://www.mtsu.edu:8443/first-amendment/article/1359/potter-stewart)

      Stewart’s “definition” left a great many people quite frustrated with him, but nobody has a good definition of pornography. So, Stewart’s observation remains a popular quote.

      If you can define what it means to feminize an organization, provide a definition that upon reflection most people find acceptable, you will have no trouble seeing for yourself whether the Liberal Christian church has been feminized. The truth would be so obvious that my assertion would not even be worth discussing.

      Did Jesus use parables? Yes. Are parables like fairytales? Close, but not exactly. Both, however, involve stories, and we learn from stories. The point of a parable is to get a lesson across to the hearer, not to make anyone believe that the parable is the actual truth. Fairytales, on the other hand, are entertainment that may incidentally contain lessons. We enjoy pretending that a fairytale is real.

      When a Christian church is doing what it is supposed to do, the pastor is a teacher whose sermons consist largely of Bible exposition. In the process, in he or she explains (as much as is possible) the meaning of the parables, the symbols, the metaphors, idioms and so forth. Members do their part with group and self study. The object is to try to understand God as He is.

      Think about that: understanding God as He is. Since God is a spirit and not a he, even that statement contains babble. What is a spirit? We have no idea, but we do babble, Why?

      Is our confusion just about the fact God is a spirit? No. Our babble has more to do with the fact that God is God. He is holy. No man can see God and live. The more we perceive God as He is, the more stressed out we get. The only way to deal with that fear is to love God.

      1 John 4:18 New American Standard Bible
      There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

      But none of us come close to loving our Creator as we should. So, we all fear God.

      1. If feminization is something that can’t be defined, then it begins to sound like a catch-all excuse for why men won’t go to church. Otoh, pornography can and should have a legal definition. In the case you refer to, whether Fanny Hill should be banned, the judge applied 1960s wishy-washy sex morality to the book. Prior to that point, Fanny Hill was pornography by any measure due to its graphic depictions of both gay and straight sex. So I do not buy into what you’re saying that “he just knows it when he sees it.” We all know what pornography is. A science anatomy textbook isn’t; a Playboy or Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue *is*. I will agree that the concepts of feminity and masculinity are difficult to define because they are largely intangible. I could find a dozen men right now who desire relationships more than anything and they are still masculine, and a dozen women who study apologetics as a pasttime who are still feminine. But if it’s so very difficult to define the essence of men and women, then why are men using the term “feminized” as a catch all for what’s wrong with the church? You can’t fix something that has no solid definition. It becomes an absurdist accusation at that point, and the men who try to fix the perceived problem with hearty men’s programs will often be disappointed when men don’t show up. When we fix real church problems such as not calling sin out for what it is, some will leave and others will return to church. Did you know in the last ten years, men’s abandoning of church has remained steady, but women’s has gone up precipitously?

        To clarify, I wasn’t calling Christ’s parables fairy tales. No, I was saying that fairy tales, which fall under the category of cultural myths, to be mimicry of God’s greater mythos he created: the story of a chosen bride who is unfaithful and then taken captive by evil nations. This bride had to be rescued by the true bridegroom and king and set free from her chains by him. It’s the story of Perseus and a 1000 other similar stories. But it’s God’s story, and it had a real-life fulfillment in Jesus. These kinds of stories are universal to human cultures and have been told and retold for eons. They are not feminine, as they are universal to mankind. But I have also not seen fairy tales being preached in church. So I wonder what I’ve been missing in the kinds of churches I’ve spent time in, which all give expository Bible sermons, and engage in some kind of communal worship and prayer. There was one church, a non-denominational charismatic, where the pastor often didn’t preach at all because they got caught up in prayer and worship. That was a very different experience for me, but I think it’s good to get out of one’s comfort zones occasionally.

        I apologize for the lengthy comment, but I find reasonable conversations are much more productive than to be written off as an angry woman who would be beaten into submission by non Christian cultures. And, no, frustration is not anger. At best, it is a precursor to anger.

        1. SI Swimsuit Issue is pornography? Then we really do have differences clarifying things. Because that means beaches are pornographic.

          1. Well, I might have misspoken with Sports Illustrated. I thought they had a nude centerfold. Clearly, bikinis are inappropriate in most cases but they technically cover the parts of the body considered legally obscene.

        2. @jilldomschot

          Even if it is lengthy, I appreciate a thoughtful comment. Glad you choose to attend churches that focus on the Bible.

          There are a quite a number of words that defy definition. Why? Ever heard that beauty is in the eye of the beholder? How we define pornography, femininity, beauty, good, generosity, wisdom and so other things depend upon who makes the call. Judge Potter Stewart made his call on pornography, and lots of people were not happy, but until we get enough judges who believe poem can be well enough defined, we are still stuck with it.

          To operate in an orderly fashion, societies depend upon shared values. Why? We define what would otherwise be difficult to define based upon the values we share.


          Isaiah 5:20 New American Standard Bible
          20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
          Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
          Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

          We use to live in a society where people defined good and evil based upon our Christian heritage. Unfortunately, many of the people who run our country, including our educational establishment and the mass media have conspired to undermine and replace our Christian values with so-called secular values (which are really equivalent to if it feels good, do it).

          So, I could try to define what it means to feminize the church, but I have no desire to argue over the definition. Instead, I have pointed to the fact that men have much less interest in Liberal Christian churches than women, and I have pointed to doctrinal issues which we typically think would make a church more attractive to women than men.

          Is the feminization of the church the fault of women? No. I think the impetus came originally from academia, the seminaries where our pastors are trained. Because their seminaries had undermined their faith, instead of preaching the Word, the clergy started too much focusing on the size of their membership. Since women are easier to attract and contribute more immediately to the social life of a church, pastors started doing what it takes to attract them.

          The sad thing is that churches should be the fortresses that stand forthrightly in defense of our nation’s Christian values, but the vast majority of them won’t stand and fight. That passage in Ephesians 6 about spiritual warfare does not seem to matter to them.

          Men who won’t fight when it needful cannot rightly be called manly.

          1. I agree there are many words that are difficult to define. I just don’t agree that pornography is one of them. Only a very godless judge would come to that conclusion. “Feminization” might very well difficult to define, but that makes it useless in solving what’s wrong with the church. You can’t solve a problem that you can’t define.

          2. @jilldomschot

            Can I come up with a definition of pornography, one that everyone understands and is legally enforceable. I suppose so, but would a judge and jury convict a pornographer based upon my definition? Would a judge and jury agree that that what I defined as pornography should be illegal? In the America of 1950, I doubt I would have had a problem getting a conviction. In the America of 2021, which has a much larger population of Pagans, I think I would have a problem. Christians and Pagans don’t share the same values. So, they don’t share the same definitions.

    2. here’s a definition . . .American Standard Version:
      But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God

      The head of the woman is man . . . that’s what the bible says. That’s why you guys can be treated as second class citizens . . . you are women and when you usurp the chain of command you are out of order.

      That scripture is far stronger for a mini-minded pastor than you might imagine. I think Paul got it all wrong.

      1. @pitybull1

        The context of that quote makes it quite obvious that it isn’t about men dominating women. Men are supposed to serve their wives. Women submit to their husbands in respect because their husbands love them as they love their own body. Christ died for us, and that is how much a man is supposed to cherish his wife. Neither the man nor the woman independent of the other.

  5. Just know Tom, that as a woman, I’ve always felt the feminist movement has been oh so upside down.
    Simply filled with anger, wrath, and ego.
    As Christians we know that The Church is the Bride of Christ — I’ve never felt that God is chauvinistic—quite the contrary—
    It was a humble woman who bore His son—
    Sure Eve might have started a little something messy and thus folks stupidly assumed Christianity was anti woman— as in females are the bane of existence but that is the furthest from the truth. The discerning Believer knows differently.
    Sure some men who claim to be Christians are all out nuts regarding women and that of a woman’s role but off kilter Christian men aren’t the only ones—all sorts of men and even many woman are skewed.

    I personally believe in the man being head of a home with his wife yielding in that authority as he knows she is to stand side by side and not behind—— but we know that’s harder said than done as we humans are known to screw up— screw up our responsibilities, our relationships, our entire thought process— in part because of the ego and hubris that clings to our sinful nature —
    Humility is found in surrendering— and that is something both sexes have a huge problem with— surrendering!
    So yeah, one more issue all because we just don’t “get it”— as God just shakes his head!!

    1. @Julie

      Agreed! I had three brothers and two sisters. I have no doubt that there are times we took our mother for granted. When we are standing upon granite, we don’t expect it to suddenly fracture and give way. She was gentle. She loved us, and we depended upon her knowing she would be there. To this day, that is how I wish to see women. The only way I know to give thanks for my mother is to treat women with respect.

      1. Well said Tom— hard as granite yet soft like warm butter— women are to be strong as well as nurturers — that’s gotten messed up along the way— and yet we just keep getting messier with each passing day— thank you Tom and thank you to those men who get it!

  6. In Matthew 23:37, Christ shows his motherly face, ‘How often I wanted to gather you.. as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings.’

    ‘God is a Spirit.’ The M/F issue isn’t physical, it’s God’s spirit characteristics towards men, and ours to him. “Receive ye the Holy Ghost.”

    Proverbs 4:3, For I was my father’s son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother.

    The new testament church began as ‘one accord in one place.’ And Christ prayed to his Father in John 17, ‘That they may be one, as we.’

    ‘For the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready’ (Revelation 19:7).

    1. @Arnold

      That’s certainly another dimension to the discussion, but I wonder if is correct to say that the M/F issue is not physical. It seems to me we discern wisdom — right from wrong — spiritually. Of course, the whole subject of the spiritual can quickly leave us as confused as Nicodemis.

      1. Indeed Nicodemus! And I was too quick to dismiss “physical.” Christ came in the flesh to indwell us with his Spirit. And whether masculine or feminine, spiritual or physical, we share the image of God (Genesis 1).

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