Back in September I wrote WHEN DOES REFUSING TO ADMIT A MISTAKE BECOME EVIL?. Now, with winter approaching, the Coronavirus (COVID-19) is making a come back, do I regret that post? No.
WHEN DOES REFUSING TO ADMIT A MISTAKE BECOME EVIL? was about the way Sweden has handled COVID-19. Because the virus is coming back, the Swedes, who apparently thought they had it under control are getting nervous. Why? Well, some of the reasons are silly. Some big wigs have gotten it, Sweden’s Prince Carl Philip and wife test positive for coronavirus (yahoo.com). Happens, but the real problem is so have a lot of other people. So the death total is now around 6,500.
Out of 6,500 COVID-related deaths in Sweden…
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Citizen Tom 
China’s mishandling of covid, and fake numbers.
Something CNN would never have reported before November 3rd.
@Liz
The elites want the economy back to Obama’s new normal now. Cannot make Sleepy Joe look bad. Got to get the schools back to secularizing our children.
Yep. 😞
Curious what the covid death toll is if we don’t include New York city in the calculation.
Since I have insomnia, I took the stats from marmoewp’s link and subtracted the 24,274 deaths in NY City. Which took the deaths per million to 739. Better than France. And we’re fatter.
@Liz
I think you forgot to subtract the NYC population from the US population in that caculation. I come up with 792 deaths per million for the US w/o NYC that way. NYC on its own is at 1291 per million.
Yep. Thanks for the correction.
No problem, oversights like that just happen
@Liz
But Governor Cuomo is a hero. He even wrote the book on how to deal with COVID-19.
My spouse is flying with a person who is involved with the airline’s suicide prevention hotline.
It has never been busier.
Hundreds of people who took the paid time off are asking to come back to work they feel so isolated and depressed now.
Don’t remember if I mentioned it but I recently read the suicide death toll last month in Japan was higher than total covid deaths in the past year.
As cruel as it is to just look at the numbers, suicide rates in the US seem to have been about 120 to 150 per million from 1960 to 2017, when looking at wikipedia. Suicide rates would have to rise by a factor of five to be at a level equal to Covid-19. To be fair, most of the people commiting suicide were _a lot_ younger than the typical Covid-19 victim. Not to mention the devastation suicides cause to the relatives anf friends.
What is the average age of death from covid?
If it’s around the average life expectancy (last I checked, it was higher but that was a while ago), that’s no comparison at all.
I’ve mentioned before quality of life matters too. We could all be shut in bubbles unable to go anywhere…this would pretty much ensure no deaths from covid.
Successful suicide rates are a very small part of the equation. What goes with that number should also be the rates of overdoses, chemical dependencies, comorbidities brought on by poor lifestyle choices caused by conditions antithetical to psychological health. And of course attempted suicides.
Humans are social animals. There’s a reason close communities are healthier in general and family and close social connections lead to longevity.
You advocate to __ease__ the restrictions in the USA, in order to get to Swedish levels? Urm, how is this supposed to work, where the death toll per capita is higher in the US (809/million) than in Sweden (650/million), already? Not to mention, that you can do a lot better than that. Look for example at your friendly neighbor up in the North. And yes, you can also do a lot worse, like Belgium, Spain, or Italy.
Covid-19 deaths per million as of Nov 30,2020 for selected western countries
Belgium: 1441
Spain: 949
Italy: 911
UK: 870
USA: 809
France: 770
Sweden: 650
Switzerland: 542
Canada: 320
Germany: 196
Denmark: 142
Norway: 61
Australia: 36
Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/
I’m sorry, markoewp but those numbers cannot be correct.
Everyone knows Bad Orange man killed a quarter of a million people with covid.
Therefore there can be no deaths elsewhere from covid.
It’s #Science!
@Liz
You are deflecting
@Liz
The situation in Germany is tense, too. At the moment we have just three free intensive care beds per hospital on average. That margin is __awfully__ thin.
@marmoewp
We could send Joe Biden to Germany to help you out. 😁 National mask mandate, right? Put a cowboy bandana on everyone’s face. Problem solved.
Frankly, some problems don’t have an easy solution. Our ancestors had no idea what caused disease. Our ancestors did not know what to do. Thank God we at least know that disease is not necessarily the work a of God who has condemned us, that like a storm it comes and it goes.
I did not think you would stoop so low, but obviously a self-proclaimed Christian has nothing to offer but mockery for another people afflicted with a plague. Funny, neither in church nor at school did I ever learn that this is part of Christian doctrine, but as you are so proud to proclaim that you are Christian over and over again, I guess I will have to relearn that.
And yes, in Germany we already do have a mask mandate inside shops. It is simply one facette of tackling the problem, not a panacea. Restaurants are closed except for take-away and delivery, mass events like sports, cinema, theatre, gym, etc. are closed. Schools are open with mask mandates and mandatory venting every half hour or so. If we were so moronic as to proclaim that not wearing masks are a sign of bravery and liberty we would be in much worse shape, given our high population density and high mobility. All these mandates are done on the state level, but coordinated among the heads of the states in a conference at the federal level.
And yes, there are morons demonstrating against the masks. And the Nazis are out in force, fishing in this sea of easily duped morons to bring them over into their fold, where they will learn that this is all due to one huge conspiracy for world domination by the rich and the jews.
@marmoewp
So aggrieved. How could I dare? Well, I guess we have to keep Sleepy Joe here. 😥 But you have got to admit Angela Merkel is not much better.
I suppose your real complaint is that misery loves company, and I am not determined to be miserable and afraid enough to be good company. Still, I find it amusing that you make a point of saying that the United States is doing an awful job on COVID-19. Unfortunately, if anything, in parts of this country, the lockdown was tighter here than in Germany. Virginia has a Democrat governor, BTW.
Still, when I dare to find humor in the situation, you complain I am make fun of another people afflicted with the plague. You mean you don’t have it under control? .
Nobody has the spread of COVID-19 under control. That is why Trump focused on developing tests, treatments and vaccines.
Because people NEED people, masks and social distancing don’t work well. Because young people know the virus is not dangerous to them, masks and social distancing don’t work that well.
I remember being 20 years old. It may be almost 50 years ago, but I remember. It is foolish and shortsighted for old people to demand that people that age to stay away from each other.
I am retired now. If I am to leave anything worthwhile behind me in this world, it will be the influence I had on my children and the children of my friends and neighbors. So the whole idea that I should lock down the whole country when young people don’t need such protection is just stupid. I want young people to learn and prosper, not suffer in futility.
You don’t like morons and Nazis? Then don’t make it easy for them.
marmoewp,
Do you know people who have had covid? What was their experience?
I’m honestly curious.
At this point I know at least ten people, personally, who have had covid. Not one of them would agree with you. They agree with Citizen Tom.
Yet you’re yelling at him about “mockery for other people afflicted with plague”.
Which was just a stab at levity for the true ridiculousness of the situation.
I guess one could scream at you in kind. How dare you not care about people who are destitute as a result of these lockdowns. How dare you not care about the social isolation that is making people ill and leading them to commit suicide.
You have no solutions, only complaints. And very personal ones obviously.
Good grief.
@Liz
Guess what? You did. Thank you.🤗
When I worked in the hospital and the ICU was full, they called in more ICU nurses and rolled beds into the ICU ward. Of course they could only do that to a certain capacity. But the ICU isn’t necessarily a hard equation like x number of beds= x capacity level.
Still remember that navy medical ship sent into New York. Madcow screamed that it wouldn’t get there in time. When it arrived very quickly it was not even needed.
@Liz
Governor Cuomo sent the sick people — old, of course — back to nursing homes instead.
We are in danger of running out of ICU qualified nurses, too. Normal nurses do get extra training, but that will have limits, too.
We are in danger of running out of ICU qualified nurses, too. Normal nurses do get extra training, but that will have limits, too.
That could be a big problem. And respiratory techs (I don’t know how they do it in Germany, but respiratory techs play a major role here with the covid).
Not saying it isn’t a problem. But there are major health problems, and other concerns associated with lockdowns too.
Just heard from a friend this morning and her husband had covid (he’s in his 50s). He’s had much worse flus. He will ill for about two days. The rest of the family did not have any symptoms at all.
@Liz
Glad to hear your friend’s family had mild cases.
My closest personal connections to Covid-19 are friends of my sister and the brother of a school friend of mine. I don’t really know either of them. I would hate to see my sister catch it, as she just survived aggressive breast cancer and therapy last year. She was told, her chances would be slim, were she to catch the virus.
Yes, my reaction to Tom may have been harsh. But I have to admit, my patience is wearing thin. I find it hard to take that “about as lethal as a flu” nonsense in stride. Ignorance can be cured, willful ignorance is something I find very hard to stomach. Maybe I really should take a break.
And I do have friends in America I care about and worry for. If people want to conciously endanger themselves, let me step out of the way, it is their choice of death. But this tolerance ends, when they recklessly endanger others and entice people to act like them.
@marmoewp
We live in complex societies with multitudes of problems and solutions. We can suffer, and we can die from many different causes. Often, protecting ourselves from one threat makes us more vulnerable to another. If nothing else, when we protect ourselves from a threat, we have to consider when that protection becomes too costly.
In a free society as much as possible we allow people to make their own choices. That is because we choose the tradeoffs we each want to make our choices based upon our personal values, not someone else’s preferences. Unfortunately, with respect to COVID-19 we have turned over what should be personal decisions over to politicians. Since many of these people are just foolish people who know how to win popularity contests, too often they have just made things worse.
So, yes, care about people, but trust people to make their own choices. Will they always make the right choice? Does the answer depend upon whether you or they were happy with that choice?
marmoewp, I’ve never seen a person dying of covid (since I haven’t been a floor nurse in years). I’ve seen many people die of lung cancer, which is probably similar (in the worst cases). I would not wish that on anyone…it’s truly horrible.
Both sides of my family have suicides so in our case I’m very worried about the social isolation aspects right now. I don’t think this is a picnic for anyone. Not making light of it. Helps to know where people are coming from.
Thank you for the response.
-Grace and Peace,
Liz out
@marmoewp
You are the expert in statistics. Unfortunately, you use statistics with a particular solution in mind. Instead, we should use statistics as a tool to assess which combination of solutions work best.
First, we have to define the problem correctly. The problem? What is the best way to ensure we keep as many people alive for as long as possible without sacrificing their quality of life. Note that we each have the right to determine for ourselves what constitute the best quality of life.
People die from many things besides COVID-19. In fact, few people will die because of that virus. So wrecking havoc upon our economy and social interactions to stop the spread of a virus that is about as lethal as the flu does not make any sense.
“a virus that is about as lethal as the flu ”
You still do believe that utter nonsense, don’t you? Look and behold
The plot is for deaths by all causes. Covid-19 did this to the USA after infecting what share of the population? 4% we know of, so maybe 10% in total?
The chart stops at the beginning of october, because deaths take 1 to 8 weeks to be reported and included in this statistic.
https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/fluview/mortality.html
@marmoewp
And it will probably be worse this season. So what are going to do, panic and run off a cliff. When something bad happens, it is not a good idea to do something that makes things worse.