Trump Campaign Legal Team Holds Press Conference in DC 11/19/20

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Got the video below from here, Trump Legal Team Outlines Election Fraud Allegations (realclearpolitics.com). The press event starts about an hour into the video.

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201 thoughts on “Trump Campaign Legal Team Holds Press Conference in DC 11/19/20”

  1. “We got a special prosecutor to investigate Trump’s so-called collusion without any evidence. Didn’t bother you.”

    Tom,

    Ah, but you and Liz have conveniently forgotten all the relevant facts and law good brother. Trump’s own appointed second in command at the DOJ appointed the special counsel, and Trump’s man ultimately controlled the entire investigation (there is no longer an “Independent” Special Prosecutor Law). Rosenstein did this when Trump dubiously fired the FBI Director and Trump’s own handpicked and confirmed Attorney General recused himself under DOJ internal guidance because he believed he had a conflict of interest (Trump ultimately fired Sessions for simply following DOJ ethics rules). Mueller is a lifelong Republican who, like anyone who gets near Trump, ended up by having his prior excellent reputation in both Parties as a public servant of the Rule of Law bashed by everyone on both sides.

    The Mueller thing was certainly egged on by the Dems but, if it was a monster, it ultimately was a creature of your own political Party’s making and could not have even happened or been sustained without the instigation of Republicans within Trump’s own administration. It’s ok though, all those minions who proved insufficiently obsequious to your mercurial emperor have been purged (and continue to be purged).

    Trump’s legal team’s biggest promoter of factfree conspiracies about Dominion software planted cabals lead by the ghost of Hugo Chavez, Sidney Powell, just got fired over the weekend. I’m sure the problem wasn’t that she exceeded the limits of some Trump crazy meter – that meter broke a long time ago. More likely, when she started attacking her fellow Trump cultists as not being fervent enough in bending election laws until they broke, those loyalists requested Trump sideline her, and Trump complied.

    How crazy did Caligula have to get before his Praetorian Guard conspired to take him down? The conspirators back then thought they could restore the old Roman Republic once the mad ruler was gone, but they learned that once faith in those institutions is destroyed by cynicism, it’s hard to bring it back.

    Here is an interesting article on conspiracy theories by historian and author of “Sapiens: A Graphic History”, Yuval Noah Harari:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/11/20/opinion/sunday/global-cabal-conspiracy-theories.amp.html

      1. Liz,

        So crazy, massive, unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about election fraud stealing the entire election from Trump are far too important to be undermined by Sidney Powell’s even crazier, more massive, more unsubstantiated, conspiracy theories that you were promoting here before. Conspiracy theories that ultimately undermine confidence in the institution of voting should not be left to amateurs like Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani, but only to the professional legal yarn spinners at the Federalists. Yep, that makes perfect sense. 😏

        Ok. let’sI assume that you want the Senate to be controlled by Republicans so as to offset the insane desires of secret lifelong Marxist election cabal
        conspirators like Joe Biden? If you tell GA Republicans that, despite the fact that Republicans write the laws and control the elections in GA, their votes will be stolen by those geniuses in voter fraud conspiracies in the conveniently black dominated places there, then why should GA Republicans even bother to vote?

        Like I said, you can’t tell people that stoplights are a grand Democratic conspiracy not ti be trusted without Republicans running into each other at intersections even more than the Democrats will. But yeah, keep believing this Trump nonsense and drinking this koolaid because it tastes sooo much better out of the Federalist’s pitcher.

        I could say that I am taking no pleasure in pointing out the crazytown zaniness of this, but you’d know I was lying. As a lawyer, I enjoy the debate, but come on, at some point it does just get cruel. 🙄

        1. Sidney Powell’s even crazier, more massive, more unsubstantiated, conspiracy theories that you were promoting here before.

          I’ve only read this far (and have to drive a friend to the doctor so I’ll be out for a while).
          But I have to ask.
          Which “crazy unsubstantiated Powell conspiracy theory” are you referring to here that “I have (ostensibly) been promoting”?

    2. Trump’s legal team’s biggest promoter of factfree conspiracies about Dominion software planted cabals lead by the ghost of Hugo Chavez

      It is a fact that two weeks prior to the election, there was a court case in Georgia that agreed with the concerns associated with the new Dominion voting system, writing that the case presented “serious system security vulnerability and operational issues that may place Plaintiffs and other voters at risk of deprivation of their fundamental right to cast an effective vote that is accurately counted.”
      This isn’t a conspiracy theory, it is fact. I know you know because I provided a link to the 146 page court document.

      1. Liz,

        And I provided the link to Trump’s own agency, an agency that Trump actually created, which debunked this Dominion conspiracy theory at its Rumor Control site. I know, Trump fired the guy in charge because he was a mole secretly working for Chavez’ disembodied brain.

        This is a type of logical fallacy where, if you can find anything wrong about something or someone, then you must believe everything is wrong. (Cancel Culture on the Left and Democrat Conspiracies on the Right). If I can show that you ever lied then it means you always lie.

        The reality is that, like people, most complex systems are flawed. What we do is go by the totality of the evidence, we put in checks to deal with predictable unintended consequences – we don’t throw out the baby with the bath water.

        As Harari points out, because many people don’t handle uncertainty and complexity very well, they are alway looking for “the grand scheme” that explains everything, all their suffering, all the problems in society, even if the confirming evidence is isolated and sketchy at best. To be honest, I think that some of the best qualities of religious people, our faith and hope, make us particularly psychologically susceptible to this logical fallacy. And intelligence has little to do with this susceptibility. As you know, even some of the smartest people often fall victim to cults.

        I’m not immune. I’m a Catholic so I’ve belonged to a cult of sorts my whole life and I really love it. As my confessor and counselor once told me: “Love is often not logical”. And as you know, I have a magical belief about love. I think that I am in good company throughout Christian history though.

        For me at least, I reconcile this paradox by trying to maintain constant skepticism without it crossing too far into cynicism, childlike mysticism without it falling to far into gullibility. I’m not always successful at either end of this balancing act. I think also we need to be more humble as individuals and as a society about the limits of what we can actually know with certainty and embrace ambiguity with a positive, uplifted attitude. That’s just me though. We all need to have our own epiphanies . . . and soon I hope.😇

        1. And I provided the link to Trump’s own agency, an agency that Trump actually created, which debunked this Dominion conspiracy theory at its Rumor Control site.
          🙂
          I recall this conversation. It is not as you claim. It did not say Dominion software was untamperable. The agency asserted there are safety measures in place (in SOME areas) to ensure accuracy. These measures are things like auditing and manual recounts. I’ll just quote them: “Robust safeguards including canvassing and auditing procedures help ensure the accuracy of official election result”
          Stuff the Democrats have been fighting against and calling others conspiracy theorists to suggest.

          I know, Trump fired the guy in charge because he was a mole secretly working for Chavez’ disembodied brain.
          This is your third reference to Chavez and/or something to do with Venezuela.
          I’ve never mentioned Venezuela but it seems very important to you to draw some comparison here.

          You say I’m asserting conspiracy theory by bringing up the Georgia case.
          The expert affidavits from the Georgia litigation BROUGHT BY DEMOCRATS resulted in a 147 page opinion from a DEMOCRAT appointed federal judge who stated it is not a matter of if the Dominion systems are compromised, only a matter of when.
          In a nutshell:
          Voting right interest groups made a strong record that the Dominion system was subject to manipulation. The judge agreed but said it was too late to forced the state to change the voting process for Nov.

          Guess those Democrats and the judge were shills for Trump, eh conspiracy theorist?

          1. But Trump absolutely thinks they should shill for him if he placed them there. Hence his demand for loyalty. Now, in the real world some of us actually believe when a judge is appointed they will likely do a fair job keeping their personal politics/bias out of a case. I really don’t put much value on an expected judicial appointment, even SCOTUS, leaning because of personal bias. But a large number of actual cases don’t fall inside some political/moral category (outside SCOTUS). Yet in the end judges also have to answer to a higher authority on their performance inside their chain of command.
            One doesn’t need to “conspiracy theory” Trump’s psychological persona. Plain as day… to those who can see. And.. yes.. I can see and know him… as do many other psych professionals including his niece.

          2. Again Liz, the question isn’t whether something like voting systems, legal systems, press systems, political party systems, civil service systems, military systems, market systems, and all the other institutions that make up the modern democratic state are perfect, it’s whether they are perfect enough and whether they are constantly being perfected as technology, economics and people change, evolve and adapt to improve those systems, and yes, to counter those improvements, as people are always want to do. You make something fool proof and life invents a better fool; you harden something against criminals and life will invent even more hardened criminals.

            I’ll guarantee you that there was some voter fraud instances, most likely by Republicans as much as Democrats, but my guess is that either way it is exceedingly rare. Why? There’s no real reward in it and the risk or penalty is very high. Such crime would be a luxury item that the immigrants and poor people, mostly of color, who Republicans mostly want to accuse are the least likely to be able to afford to commit voter fraud just for fun (have you ever heard of the economic behavior called “rational apathy”?). Something so obviously unlikely and so obviously easy to find and prosecute is bound to be and has been shown to be so rare that it’s unlikely to have shifted the election for Biden or for Trump.

            So why not massive voter fraud conspiracy using a susceptible software system? The bigger the conspiracy, the harder it is to keep secret. In the case of your Dominion software conspiracy, by your own reporting, this was like trying to rob a bank where the police know about the tunnel to the bank and are waiting at the end of robbed.

            Secondly, again, where’s the risk versus the profit in belonging to such a conspiracy? When I worked as the Executive Administrator of my Airline’s union, we lost a binding arbitration that resulted in a substantial paycut for the pilots. Afterwards, many pilots who I talked to were just sure that the CEO bribed the neutral arbitrator. My answer always would be: “why would the CEO at a publicly held corporation risk ruining his career and possibly going to jail for the bonus he might get out of the deal, especially when an exceptionally high bonus would raise red flags and require even more conspirator? Why would the arbitrator risk the same penalty unless the money were incredibly high, and again, who would pay it? How would such a secret be kept? It’s just not a rational cost benefit for anyone and, although they may sometimes be rapacious, CEOs are incredibly rational. So are arbitrators. In a massive conspiracy to rig the votes in a single state, much less the whole country, one is risking an incredible amount of federal jail time, it would be almost impossible to not get caught, and for what, so that Biden will be elected? Seriously? It makes more sense that little green men from the planet, Zoltron rigged it because Biden is one of them and he want to eat our brains.

          3. @tsalmon

            You make something fool proof and life invents a better fool; you harden something against criminals and life will invent even more hardened criminals.

            So, we should not bother to put our cars in park, and we may as well leave the key in the ignition.

            I’ll guarantee you that there was some voter fraud instances, most likely by Republicans as much as Democrats, but my guess is that either way it is exceedingly rare. Why? There’s no real reward in it and the risk or penalty is very high. Such crime would be a luxury item that the immigrants and poor people, mostly of color, who Republicans mostly want to accuse are the least likely to be able to afford to commit voter fraud just for fun (have you ever heard of the economic behavior called “rational apathy”?). Something so obviously unlikely and so obviously easy to find and prosecute is bound to be and has been shown to be so rare that it’s unlikely to have shifted the election for Biden or for Trump.

            What a humble concession!🙄 You even complimented us with charges of racism, again. Yet,…. Well, I guess you are kindly making up for yawning at this article. You did a great job of explaining why Democrats work so hard to make it easy to cheat. When you make it easy there is a real reward for very little risk.

            So, there is nothing left to discuss, I guess. You must be right. Unless we make it real easy, crime on a great scale is impossible. Because everyone would know about it, crime on a great scale is impossible.

            The Holocaust did not happen. This is just a legend that our soldiers brought home with them at the end of WWII.

            Joseph Stalin did not work millions to death in his gulags. Gosh! Even The New York Times told us that did not happen.

            Mao Zedong was just a grandfatherly ruler. No one died because of his dripping red Cultural Revolution.

            Who would risk their soul just to further the goals of the elites who seek ever greater power? Who would even dream of putting people like Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong in power in the first place? Would not be worth the risk.

            Still, I wonder. If Democrats stole the election using massive voter fraud, what would be any different from what we are seeing now?

          4. Tom,

            How obtuse?

            The “conspiracy” to commit the Holocaust, as well as all the other atrocities you mention, were found out – that’s why we know about them.

            There was money or absolute power or some all consuming ideology as the reward to justify the risk. Biden is Hitler? Moa? Stalin? Why not Genghis Khan? Gees, just the other day weren’t you calling him Sleepy Joe, the guy who couldn’t even rub two brain cells together to spark a thought in his head? Now he’s a voter fraud criminal mastermind of a secret conspiracy, as John Bolton said, “so vast and so successful that there’s no evidence of it“?

            Biden is a lifelong democratic institutionalist. He’s appointing competent, experienced government officials who also are avid democratic institutionalists. This isn’t the secret evil power grab coup d’tat of your vivid imagination – it’s what the peaceful transfer of office in a liberal, working modern democratic state is supposed to look like, messiness, warts and all.

            But by all means, if you have evidence that Biden was assisted by the Illuminati secretly based in Venezuela and lead by the ghost of Hugo Chavez, bring it to court. That should be entertaining. Do you wonder if what you are really scared of, why you must invent and reinvent all these fantastic straw men . . . is because government, when it’s run by leaders with integrity and capable institutionalists . . . just might work? OMG! The horror, the horror! 😊

          5. @tsalmon

            Biden is a life long institutionalist, a democratic institutionalist, whatever that is.😐 I suppose it means he is some kind of angel from a future where man has been perfected.

            I asked you a question. If the election was stolen, what would be different from what were seeing? I used far more serious crimes as examples. Each at the time was hidden and buried with propaganda. We most certainly have had plenty of propaganda. Of course, you will say the propaganda comes from Trump. I will just observe that The New Times has not been a good source for uncovering genocides.

          6. The person who professes to being able to critically think past what is “propaganda”, has just fallen for it.
            Feel free to quote me.

          7. Secondly, again, where’s the risk versus the profit in belonging to such a conspiracy?

            Per your CEO/arbitration example, I agree.
            The cost to benefit analysis doesn’t follow.
            At the risk of beating a dead horse, we just recovered from a divisive investigation that cost years and millions (if you want to credit the loss of faith in our “institutions” look no further than those institutions and how they conducted their affairs, or how their leadership is now employed by the media).
            The charge was colluding with an enemy foreign country so someone could be president for the purpose of eventually getting a hotel in Moscow.
            Well, not the whole hotel. Just the name.
            This really happened. Where was the “reasonability test” in this scenario?

            Next: Voter fraud does not fit into the above “reasonability test” scenario.
            For starters, as you admit fraud exists.
            Now we’re just debating how “massive” it might be.
            There is no need to commit fraud all around the US, or even statewide as suggested. A few key communities would be enough in elections so close.
            Not sure how “voter apathy” falls into the equation here.
            The money that went into this election was in the billions.
            Obviously the results must be very very important to someone/someones.

            Second, the court case (that again was conducted this year and the verdict in the short weeks prior to the election) offered the testimony of experts that the software was not only vulnerable to malware (aka “subject to malicious alteration”) but that there is no technical mechanism currently available that can ensure that the auditing process itself will ensure accuracy.

            a broad consensus now exists among the nation’s cybersecurity experts recognizing the capacity for the unobserved injection of malware into computer systems to circumvent and access key codes and hash values to generate fraudulent codes and data.
            In these experts’ views, these risk issues are in play in the operation of Dominion’s Democracy Suite 5.5-A GA, and take on greater significance because the system is one that does not provide a verifiable an auditable ballot record because it relies on the QR code for vote tabulation and that code itself cannot be read and verified by the voter.
            Hacking alterations of the barcodes and/or predicate text, security keys, or hash values renders tracing or auditing of the fraudulent change in voting data difficult or impossible in their viewpoint – and in turn impacts the capacity to conduct
            appropriate auditing of ballot data or to implement corrective “re-count” measures.            ”

            Nuff said.

          9. @Liz

            Whenever we commit a sin at the time we commit the sin we believe a lie. When people believe a lie in spite of having plenty of contrary indications, they are not behaving rationally. Are we to believe Democrats are behaving rationally after doing their best for four years to convict our president of charges we now know to be based upon their lies? Of course not.

            Given the past, why do we have to accept tsalmon’s proposition that Democrats would not risk committing massive voter fraud in order to beat Trump? Don’t we know that they have already broken the law?

          10. Side note: I have a bet with one of my sons on the outcome of this election and if I lose I have to praise AOC in an admiring and convincing writeup.
            I am not looking forward to this as she grows more and more distasteful every day.

          12. Liz,

            At least that’s a cogent argument that doesn’t involve plotting masterminds from the afterlife. Two problems:

            1. You can’t just say that Sidney Powell of fantastic conspiracy theory fame is part of your “crack legal team”, give her crackpot nonsense unfiltered air time on all your conservative media, and then when her nonsense doesn’t work in the real world of courts and stuff, make her the fall guy and pretend she was never part of the Trump team to begin with – that’s denying reality on top of denying reality. And as if Giuliani isn’t hair (dye running) brained enough these days? The whole thing is irreparably tainted by kookiness now, and I have to call “no take backs” on you.

            If there really were a viable argument for a “vast” multi billion dollar conspiracy, Republican conservatives have some of the best lawyers in the country to pursue it, but they’ve abandoned your feckless Liar-in-Chief. If the stakes really are that high, there’s plenty of billions at stake on the Republican side too – don’t you wonder why all those excellent conservative attorneys left the Trump Train as it falls over its conspiracy theory cliff? I think the smart money in the Republican Party is sick of Trump’s nonsense, but don’t want to lose his cult like base (the guy did have some dark charisma that turn out a record number of Republican voters), so they are stepping way back and letting Trump implode in on his own lies.

            2. Same argument as before. It’s the problem with all “vast” conspiracy theories: the more that they can’t be proven absolutely wrong, the more people want to think they are true.

            We are circling back on our arguments now, and getting to the same place. As always, it’s been fun though. I agree: “Nuff said”.

          13. “I asked you a question. If the election was stolen, what would be different from what were seeing?”

            Tom,

            The 20th Century philosopher, Ludwig Wittgenstein, once asked a friend why he thought people once believed the Sun circled the Earth. His friend replied because it “appears” that way. Wittgenstein then asked his friend what it would “appear like” if instead the Earth rotated in place in relative to the position to the Sun.

            I guess we live in the reality that works for us in the moment until, for some reason or another, that reality becomes unworkable, and even then there is resistance to change. Your change in “appearances” isn’t that the Earth is rotating, but that there is a Democrat Conspiracy to make us think it’s rotating when it’s not. With evidence, and authority, eventually most people will believe the new science, but you are just offering fabulous “what ifs” without anything more. If I’m just trying to figure out when to get up and go to work in the morning, a “sunrise” works just fine.

          14. @tsalmon

            Effectively, you have just admitted we would not see anything different.

            Scientist reach conclusions based upon whatever observations they have. If the sun appears to be circling the earth, then it is not foolish to assume that it is. Copernicus, based upon a better understanding of the observational data, manage to figure the earth circles the sun.

            We have a similar problem. We have some information, but we don’t have all of it. Given the behavior of Democrats, there is no reason to assume they would not cheat. https://citizentom.com/2020/11/19/trump-campaign-legal-team-holds-press-conference-in-dc-11-19-20/comment-page-1/#comment-98114

            So, I am content to wait and see what Trump’s legal team can produce. You, however, are outraged. That says more about you than Trump’s legal case. If you were confident, you would be relaxed and unconcerned. That you are not, and that says volumes.

          15. Tom,

            I seem “outraged”? Weird. Not feeling it. We won.

            Trump’s legal team is literally a joke. I think you are confusing outrage with laughter. Again, different appearances depending upon what one projects upon the world. 🙃

          16. @tsalmon

            You protest your “joy” far too much. You sound like Joe Biden calling for unity.

            When people cheat it leaves a bitter taste, and you know the Democrat victory makes little sense. A campaign run out of the basement. After all the Democrats suddenly settled on phony, lunch bucket, harmless old Joe.

            So, to cover up your own doubts you have to come here and ridicule any possibility of cheating. To cover up the fact you backed a fraud, you have to prove to yourself Trump “deserved” to lose. Only thing is that it backfired. First, like the fraudulent news media you watched complained, there was no cheating. Voter fraud is a myth. Now there was not enough cheating to make a difference. Where do back peddle to next, the cliff behind you?

          17. Tom,

            Yep, you have my sinister, uhh, anxiety(?) all figured out. I secretly know that Sidney Powell will soon “release the Kraken” on Biden’s communist conspiracy with Venezuela to have the Republican Governor and Secretary of GA be bribed into throwing the election to the real power behind the throne, the beautiful and cunning AOC, who has a dark toned wizard at SCOTUS under her control and who also helps her maintain her youthful beauty (she’s really centuries old) by eating the souls of small children. The Trump team only seemed to fire Sidney to throw the Democrat released hounds of Hell off her scent. Even now, our heroine Sidney has gone to the deepest canyon of the Atlantic Ocean, snuck past Poseidon (who along with the rest of the Olympians are known Democrats) and is undoing the chains of one of that last of the Titans so that he can reek havoc on the Biden’s fraudulent claims to the Kingdon and Trump will soon be gloriously crowned Emperor for Life of All of the Seven Kingdoms.

            Wait, let me get some popcorn. 🔜🦄🧚‍♀️🏰🗝🍀🧜🏻‍♀️👽

          18. Seems Giuliani and Trump are planning a “defy the vote” rally.. likely trying to continue to rip off the Trump base for more money to pay off his debt. Amazing how gullible…………

          19. @tsalmon

            You voted for Joe Biden, and you complain about Trump, but you cannot explain what Trump has done wrong. Nevertheless, you are absolutely certain the election was not stolen. And why? Cause it would have been impossible to steal it especially AFTER your party did all it could to soften up the laws that protect election security.

            Everyone is so honest, especially Democrats, that we don’t need laws to maintain election security. Got to count every vote, and if there is no such thing as an illegal vote that means we just get to count more votes and pat ourselves on back for record turnout.

            Enjoy your victory, while you can.

          20. I am so gullible I bought that book “Anonymous” after you said it would be super revealing, and was the work of some very high up official who was working closely with Trump.
            But I’m learning.

          23. Doug,

            Maybe they should call it the “Maximize Acolyte Grift Always” rally? That way the can sell everyone the same hats.

          26. I could imply the “real” fool here……………. but in the end it’s likely we are all fools from the day we were born. Subjective, and relative.. and for sure, many of my relatives fit the bill.

          27. “Effectively, you have just admitted we would not see anything different.”

            Sure bro, but as you know, if your theory is fraught with inconsistencies and depends upon increasingly fantastic “evidence” that is always just about to be released, then maybe it’s time to grudgingly rework your theory to match a better reality.

            My daughter has a female friend whose father used to be pretty rich, but for a while he belonged to a “the end is coming soon” cult. This was a very smart, very successful guy who sold everything to prepare for the end which, according to the cult leader, was to happen on a certain day. That day passed and the end never came. After several revisions on the “end time” and several disappointments for the “elect”, the followers, including my daughter’s friend, began to fall away and rebuild their lives, recognizing that they had been had by the cult leader. No doubt, years later, a few dead enders are still hanging on.

            Here’s my prediction for what it’s worth. Eventually, after the the big evidence of fantastic fraud never appears, after the Supremes refuse to take any of the frivolous appeals, after attendance at the rallies begin to fizzle out, after Trump’s hollow business empire begins to bankrupt and crumble, after some new Republican demagogue (Ted Cruz?) appears on the scene to oppose Biden/Harris in 2024, most of you will look back on Trump, like you have W, like you have McCain, like you have Romney, as a flawed crucible of all your ultra right wing hopes and dreams and fantasies of a Randian Utopia (with a little prosperity gospel thrown in). You will grudgingly move on. But some of you won’t – for some of you, no amount of “evidence” that the Sun doesn’t revolve around Donald Trump will ever be convincing enough.

            Not sure what to do about that. I guess we’ll have to wait and see. I tend to think it will make those few crackpots irrelevant to the real play, the sturm and drang of partisan politics in a two party democracy as our Republic moves on creaking and groaning down the bumpy road of history.

          28. @tsalmon

            I don’t do predictions. It is just obvious that when we put people who make it clear that they don’t like our constitutional republic — BECAUSE IT GETS IN THEIR WAY — those people will not preserve our constitutional republic. In fact, they are trying to destroy it.

            You have told me your position on Socialism. You have told me who you vote for. Based upon what you have told me, I don’t have much reason to take you seriously. Of course, you don’t take me seriously either. Why are we so far apart. I don’t call you stupid or evil, but we do begin from very different assumptions.

            My starting assumptions use to be very much like your own. After I was forced to examine those assumptions, my expectations for government and the wisdom of mankind were greatly reduced. That’s one reason why when you tell me Democrats would not even dare to steal an election I don’t take you seriously. You don’t believe in “the end is coming soon”, but you just voted for the Green New Deal,🙄😣 and yet you still have the gall to make fun of someone else. Even though you don’t seem to realize it, it is obvious you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Lying? I guess not, but certainly very confused. If you believe Global Warming is real, then you believe we are in an end of the world scenario. To stop Global Warming the way the so called environmentalist demand, we will have to let half of the world die.

              There are two at least three types of Democrats.

            • The Democrats running the show are ambitious and very crooked people. They have shown themselves capable of doing and saying anything.
            • The Democrats voting for handouts only care about the handouts. These Democrats can be on welfare or they can be corporate executives. Anyway we look at it, they can be bought with other people’s money.
            • The Democrats who actually believe what the Democratic Party peddles as its gospel care sooooo much because they are guilt-ridden. They vote for the handouts and the environmental crap like global warming because they are ashamed of their own success and America’s successes. Why? You tell me. It is your problem, not mine.

          29. TSalmon, you’re the one who believes the Russians planted photos, videos, years worth of emails, as well as three witnesses to frame Hunter Biden.
            Right?

          30. I just had a thought. Perhaps at least one element of the Marx and Hegel theory of history as a “dialectic” might be true.

            Reagan’s more competent leadership was the response to Carter’s well meaning fecklessness. The charismatically caring Clinton was a response to HW Bush’s undramatically calm statesmanship (“it’s the economy stupid”). The supposedly homespun simplicity of W was a response to Clinton’s inherent lack of character beneath that charisma. Obama’s cool intellectualism was the response to W’s Neocons dumbly blundering us into endless wars. Trump is the nationalistic, revanchist response to a creeping sense that Obama’s blackness and multilateralist, multiculturalist approach was fading true American greatness (in other words, our white waspishness) into some pluralistic homogeneous pool of cultural oblivion. And Biden is simply a fatherly, sedate, boringly sane response to the endlessly chaotic, inchoate, childishness of Trump.

            And the beat plays on . . .

          31. “TSalmon, you’re the one who believes the Russians planted photos, videos, years worth of emails, as well as three witnesses to frame Hunter Biden.
            Right?”

            You got me Liz. Me and the whole Intel community, numerous members of Trump’s own national security group who testified against Trump, the courts who prosecuted so many of Trump’s people, some who turned on Trump. including Trump’s personal attorney and “fixer”, and virtually every former high ranking member of Trump’s national security cabinet from his former Secretary of State to his former Defense Secretary to his former National Security Advisor(s), and on and on and on. But you’ve got Rudy’s Ukrainian connections which the Intel folks say are Russian agents giving him a known Russian disinformation campaign and a mysterious conveniently found laptop. You’ve got Borat punked Rudy selling fertilizer at the Total Labdscaping parking lot between the sex shop and the crematorium and you’ve got Sidney’s fantastic conspiracies.

            How can I compete? Trump must have actually won! Release the Krakens! And the dragons, elves, orcs and wizards while you’re at it. 😏

          32. You got me Liz. Me and the whole Intel community

            The above is a figment of your imagination. 
“The whole intel community” did not, and does not agree with you.
            FORMER intel who have no personal access to any of this information and are now making a living working for media?
            Yes, those folks all agree with you.

            Then there’s the years of “just wait! All of Trump’s Russia activities are coming out!”
            After a long and expensive investigation nothing. “Flynn has just done a plea deal! That means he will give out all the dirt and Trump and oh boy…if you don’t think so you’re just ignorant and don’t know what a plea bargain means….”
            Some folks were eventually charged with things that had absolutely nothing to do with Russia or Trump. So there’s that.
            At this point in time I already said several days ago if I don’t see a kraken I will start to doubt it’s there. Where was this version of you three short weeks into the senseless Russia investigation? I don’t think we’d even had that conversation on Flynn at this point. There were so many months/years of baseless assertions left.

          33. Liz,

            What are you saying?

            A. Are you admitting that it was dumb of you to believe that “massive” fraud accusations by the Trump and Rudy (and Sidney Powell) Show, but I’ve supposedly been dumb too, and for longer and about less substantiated allegations?

            B. You still believe these unsubstantiated allegations about “massive” fraud by the Trump and Rudy show, Powell’s Kraken will be released any time now, and because I was supposedly wrong about all the allegations about Trump, you must be right about this?

            C. Something else I’m missing.

            Which case you’re pleading makes a big difference on how I might respond, don’t you think?

            Also, let’s see if we can agree on a few things as beyond real dispute:

            1. During the campaign while Cohen at Trump’s direction was negotiating a Trump hotel deal in Moscow, Trump lied when he said that he had no ongoing business deals in Russia.

            2. The Intel agencies all agree that Russia launched a disinformation campaign and released hacked DNC emails specifically designed to hurt Hillary and benefit Trump.

            3. Stone met with Wikileaks head Assange at that time and lied to Congress and investigators about those and other meetings.
            4. Flynn plead guilty because he lied to the FBI about his contacts with the Russian ambassador and about the substance of those conversations.
            5. Trump Jr and co. met with Russian operatives who said that they had dirt on Hillary and he wanted that dirt.

            I can come up with about eight more of these undisputed facts if you really want to relitigate this, but it helps to know why it matters.

          34. @tsalmon

            The Trump campaign made evidence public.

            Cohen was laughable. Nobody took him seriously.

            The iIntel agencies corrupted the FISA process. The ability of the Russians to influence our elections was dwarfed by the two campaigns, the news media, Big Tech and our Intel agencies. Ironically, the DNC went to the Russians to get made up dirt on Trump, and you are still screaming Russia, Russia Russia! Pathetic.

            You are complaining about Trump’s son meeting with Russians trying to entrap him. Meanwhile, the DNC actually buys the Golden Showers dossier, and that’s not a problem? What world do you live in? A CNN fantasy land?

          35. Trump had no business deals with Russia. NONE. This is a statement of fact now, and it was a statement of fact when he said it.
            Stone never left the country in 2016.
            Flynn plead guilty because he was strong armed into doing so and caught off guard by the FBI (who did not receive permission from the White House, Comey actually boasted about this). Even so, the FBI people who interviewed him stated clearly they believed he was recalling the past conversation to the best of his ability, and was truthful in their estimation. He never lied about speaking to the Russian ambassador he simply could not recall all subjects of the conversation (per the FBI’s own statements).
            Yes, we know now that Trump Jr met with a “Russian operative”…because she met with Fusion GPS right before that interview. She was a paid operative intended to be “bait”. Trump Junior however had no idea she was an operative and even though this was designed purposefully to entrap him it failed. He was honest in the debriefing and recalled events to the best of his recollection.

            I can come up with about eight more of these undisputed facts
            Go for it if you want, but I’m done debating Trump Russia collusion. Perhaps you will understand if we go at this election fraud topic for four more years. I suspect you will grow weary.

            if you really want to relitigate this, but it helps to know why it matters.
            You have asserted that anyone who supports Trump and as much as questions election results at this point in time is a mindless cult follower. It has been three weeks and the investigation is not over. This isn’t even the equivalent of the pot calling the kettle black…it’s Andromeda calling the moon “far from earth”.

            Interesting article by the New Republic on election machines. From 2016 of course. I’m sure the New Republic loves election machines now.
            https://newrepublic.com/article/137115/americas-voting-machines-disaster-making

          36. “You have asserted that anyone who supports Trump and as much as questions election results at this point in time is a mindless cult follower.”

            Yep.. pretty much. No evidence, and Trump remains a god to 50% of the country because he claims himself to be a victim all the time and his base believes him… and no evidence. Drink the kool-aid cult to me. I would add my own worthless opinion that this cult has extended from the 2016 escalator descent into the political abyss.

          37. “Cohen was laughable. Nobody took him seriously.”

            You do realize your best argument just makes my base level argument. Cohen worked as Trump’s man for what, 12 years. Of course everybody Trump hires are laughable and unserious (often criminal people), just as Trump is laughable and unserious (and criminal), and aren’t you and everyone who has supported Trump then by implication saying that you are laughable and unserious? 😄

          39. Cohen? He also had tapes, one of which was Trump going along with paying off Trump’s adulterous affairs with porn stars so they would not go public before the election.

            Honestly, Tom, how much does this guy have to lie to you, con you, cheat on you and spread corruption that hurts the country before you give up being one of Trump’s loyal marks.

            Today Biden gave a very Presidential speech asking the country to be safe for Thanksgiving. Trump pardoned a guy who, besides his other crimes, was a paid agent serving Turkey while working as Trump’s National Security Advisor, and thenTrump, without any supporting evidence of course, spoke via telephone at one of Giuliani’s conspiracy theory shows about how the election was stolen from him.

            Trump is a conman and a national disgrace. I’m just very happy to see him on his way out the door, and just can’t get that excited about his nonsense anymore, but all the whining, sore loser stuff is just sad and self destructive.

          40. @tsalmon

            Cohen’s value to Mueller was that he was able to betray the confidence of his former client? That’s the job of a lawyer? That was the job of the special prosecutor?

            Frankly, when Ken Starr caught Bill Clinton fooling around with one of the White House interns, I considered the publication Clinton’s trysts a failure. Did I approve of Clinton? No. It just became obvious that Starr was engaged in an fishing expedition, not a serious investigation.

            Similarly, Mueller was engaged in a fishing expedition. With respect to Russian collusion, he had nothing. Cohen’s testimony just underlined what had already become obvious.

            We don’t elect saints. If we are saints, it is because Jesus Christ — His life and His sacrifice — covers up our sins. Our Father in Heaven, for the sake of His Son sees us clothed in the raiment of His sinless Son. It because we accept the sacrifice of Jesus and strive to be obedient to Him. Trump is no different. Neither is Biden.

            Is Joe Biden presidential? Does he have the look and the sound of someone who is presidential? I suppose that depend upon whose speeches he chooses to plagiarize. Seriously, when you called Biden a democratic institutionalist my jaw hit the floor. They don’t get more swampy than Biden. The evidence indicates you voted for someone who perfectly happy to sell his office China, Ukraine, Russia, …. That guy should have been under investigation, not Trump. Biden, unlike Trump, doesn’t seem to love our country, and that is what I care about.

          41. Obstruction, Tom.

            From the report…………

            “Our investigation found multiple acts by the President that were capable of exerting undue influence over law enforcement investigations, including the Russian-interference and obstruction investigations,” Mueller wrote. “The incidents were often carried out through one-on-one meetings in which the President sought to use his official power outside of usual channels. These actions ranged from efforts to remove the Special Counsel and to reverse the effect of the Attorney General’s recusal; to the attempted use of official power to limit the scope of the investigation; to direct and indirect contacts with witnesses with the potential to influence their testimony.”

            Didn’t need “collusion” for impeachment.
            Indictments handed down for 9 domestic people and 13 Russians.

            The Prez was not tossed out of office for “no evidence” but entirely because of Senate political unity and Trump loyalty to not carry the impeachment further in the traditions of a real court of law.
            Now.. this does not “exhonerate” the House for not doing the impeachment charges properly.. but that’s not the debate.

            Fini.

          44. Yep.. pretty much. No evidence, and Trump remains a god to 50% of the country because he claims himself to be a victim all the time and his base believes him… and no evidence. Drink the kool-aid cult to me.

            We know. And I think you are a kool aid drinking cult follower.
            On the one hand…you have the “evidence” that I support Trump.
            I’ve provided a lot of basis for why I support him.
            On the other hand, you’ve provided nothing beyond “he’d crazy!!”
            Never give any credit for anything he has done nor acknowledged a single thing.
            That’s nuts.
            I’m not the one who started a “Trump” blog. You started an anti-Trump one with a countdown.
            You are obsessed and it is obvious you are obsessed.

          45. As obsession goes, and my anti-Trump-ness is limited to my pontifications online and not real life, but my online persona is certainly to suggest a.. here is comes… ready? Patriotism! The same thing Trump lovers like to espouse for siding with Trump. I know.. you, Tom, and others get frustrated when I bring Trump’s psychotic social behavior to the forefront… because his base doesn’t care to “defend” that at all. To them it’s all about “Yeah, he might be all that, but look at all the good he’s done!” See.. to me… if you include all the things “good” you alleged to have done… no, wait.. let’s say the man walked on water for the entire four years and even I would agree that everything he has waved his hand over (or his Sharpie marker) has been a saintly accomplishment for all mankind…. none of that has been worth the damage to this country. So.. then you will ask.. what is all that “damage”? And therein rests a considerable problem right there… the national divide with 50% of the population doesn’t see a problem. That’s ignorance.. but there is no law against that… and it must be a good thing if half the country falls into that category… right?

          46. 55 hostages from around the world are home now thanks to Trump.
            He took out two major terrorist leaders.
            Carbon emissions were the lowest in decades this year….think that’s covid? Maybe, but they were the lowest in decades in 2019 also.
            The list goes on and on.
            You can’t even agree taking out a terrorist leader was a good idea.
            No explanation as to why we should defend newly conquered territory for the conquerers but Trump wants us to leave so it must be a good idea to stay!
            Each and every topic is anti-Trump.
            After the results show it was the right thing to do….
            move goalposts to the next thing.
            Trump invoked the Defense Production Act because, to quote him, “we need ventilators and masks”. He sent naval medical units to New York (unused).
            But oh…he did nothing. It’s nuts.
            Really really nuts.
            Blind ideologue gonna blind ideologue.

    3. @tsalmon

      Evidence? No. Innuendo? Lots of that.

      You are a lawyer. You have worked as a reporter. If you don’t know how the mass media can intimidate people using innuendo masked as evidence, I cannot explain it to you. You just don’t want to know.

      1. Tom,

        See my response to Liz above.

        Tucker Carlson of Fox Noise fame had the effrontery to find Powell’s allegations of a conspiracies so massive that they would change the large Biden victory just a little too fabulous, and he only asked her to come on his show and bring the “evidence”. The Republican viewer backlash was so swift that Carlson had to backtrack a bit. A Federal District Court Judge had the temerity to simply demand some “evidence” to back up Giuliani’s amazingly broad and constantly changing claims, and now to you he is not a legitimate judge anymore, just a disgruntled and biased RINO. Sure . . . it’s all about evidence, isn’t it?

        1. @tsalmon

          Yeah, I heard Tucker Carlson. I suppose the only time you hear about Fox is when a Conservative pundit trashes a Conservative. What are Powell’s politics? I don’t know.

          I divide the problems associated with election integrity into three categories. 1. The first relates to implementing a system. See my last post, https://citizentom.com/2020/11/23/a-road-map-for-how-to-cheat/. Democrats, in particular, have made it extremely difficult to trust our system.
          2. Constitutional and procedural issues. Was law, even as it now stands, sadly flawed, followed?
          3. Were the voting machines used to cheat? This presents technology problems.

          Trump’s lawyers cannot do anything about the first issue. They can only tackle the second and third. Trump’s main team is driving ahead with the second issue. That’s relies on publicly available information and witnesses. Some auditing will help, but I suspect most of the envelope information associated with the mail-in ballots has been destroyed.

          Sydney Powell will press ahead with the alleged fraud associated with the Dominion Voting Systems. Since computers are black boxes to most people, this part of the problem is the most complex. People can easily understand the mechanics of a truck arriving in the middle of the night with ballots just for Joe Biden. Fraudulent computer algorithms are a bit more confusing.

          Anyway, there is no shortage of evidence with respect to the first and second issues. Powell has pointed to what raised suspicions about the voting machines, but she says she is waiting to go to court.

          1. Yeah, I heard Tucker Carlson. I suppose the only time you hear about Fox is when a Conservative pundit trashes a Conservative.

            What’s most interesting about this is the elecphant in the room. Conservatives are “cult followers” yet they disagree. Even the people who support Trump disagree (I read Limbaugh sort of threw in the towel too recently). When is the last time we saw the liberal pundits disagree…especially on something related to Trump? I don’t think that’s allowed. Greenwald (a liberal but independent journalist) was blacklisted for it.
            We are all sheeple cult followers eh?

          2. @Liz
            @tsalmon
            @Doug

            That is a good point. Liz and I are just waiting to see what happens. Because it is so true and obvious, it is ridiculously easy to accuse Democrats of rank hypocrisy. Thus, Victor Davis Hanson begins his latest commentary => https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/nov/25/trump-faces-critical-choice-about-his-political-fu/). And why do we keep doing that? We keep getting told by people who believed wholeheartedly in conspiracy theories not to believe in conspiracies. Yet, all we are doing is looking at the greed for power and the hysteria of the swamp creatures and wonder what they wouldn’t do. Steal an election? Why not?

          4. @Doug
            @Liz
            @tsalmon

            Because Conservatives are not the only people who believe in the Constitution… and it’s elitism to think so.

            Am I guilty of elitism? After a fashion, I try to be.🙂

            Be egalitarian regarding persons. Be elitist regarding ideas. — Peter Kreeft of Boston College

  2. Oh I agree.. more boring will give us all a bit of respite. Maybe a bit of Mad Max was/is needed. I find Trump extraordinarily predictable in they way he will do things, albeit unpredictable in what he will do. The man has no rules. People oft compare Trump’s personality with that of Herr Hitler… then people scream that he is no Hitler as if all Hitler was were his crimes of humanity. If you’ve ever read Shirer’s book.. or even seen the very excellent German film, “Downfall”. At the end when Hitler was hunkering down in his bunker surrounded by the Russians he is still ordering his decimated or fictitious armies to attack in some futile attempt to reject his inevitable loss. In Trump’s case… his “bunker” has been the White House since election day and his “soldiers” he is sending into battle are ridiculous, uninspired, ill equipped, and even decimated in talent and loyalty given how many have been dismissed over the last four years… lawyers. Lawyers with no direction at all other than to do whatever is possible to delay, delay, delay the inevitable… at all costs, which in this case is a proper transition without sabotaging the next administration. He’s as desperate as that guy in 1945.. and disloyalty is punishable by firing on the spot… as he has done very recently.
    I will always defer to your far reaching experience in law…. but between today and the rest of Trump’s time in office.. he will recognize no law. That’s secondary to saving his own equilibrium. Let’s hope others around him… whoever is left in the “bunker” with him… can temper his temper. It’s possible his loyalists who fear him might grow some kahunas and force his hand to “surrender”.

    There are people of “good faith” that haven’t come up to bat yet. I’d not worry… and the media will just be the media. But I am an optimist.

  3. Tom, Liz, et al,

    How fabulous do these unrequited Trumpian claims of “massive voter fraud” have to get before some little voice of skepticism starts echoing down from somewhere way up there in the daylight of the real world above the narrowing information rabbit hole you’ve dug yourselves into? Are we there yet? Was it Sidney Powell’s fact free whopper that those computer geniuses in Venezuela rigged the election? Or the claim by one of Trump’s lawyers that Trump actually got 70 percent of the vote? I mean, when Trumpers are turning on Fox News and Tucker Carlson for the unforgivable wrongspeak of finding these things to be just a teensy weensy bit incredulous, it can’t be long before the more rational amongst you start climbing out of the abyss, can it. Come on up – you’ll get used to the bright light after a while. 😎

    1. There are over 200 signed and sworn affidavits.
      So now we’re debating what the meaning of “massive” is.
      How many signed and sworn affidavits did it take for the three year long Russia hoax witch hunt? How about Kavanaugh? I don’t think there was a single one for either.

      Side note: that said, I do agree there needs to be something more. But please understand after subjecting us to absurdities for four long years it’s a little hard not to point out.

      1. Come on Liz, even if you may not understand the legal subtleties, you know the basic difference between hearsay and testimony. An affidavit in itself is hearsay, but even if that person shows up in court, if that person is only going to say that someone told him that he saw something , or that, as a poll observer, someone was rude to her, or that one of the poll workers wore a BLM shirt, that’s not meaningful evidence of election fraud.

        We can relitigate your “Russia hoax witch hunt” or the Cravenaugh hearing if you like, but in both those cases, there were actual witnesses to the actual events who were, so to speak, “in the room where it happened”.

        1. Just reread.
          Over 200 pages and 500 affidavits alleging 11,000 instances of fraud.
          That’s pretty substantial.

          1. @Liz
            @tsalmon

            You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

            Liz, tsalmon does not even want to consider the possibility Democrats stole the election. So, the fact that Trump’s team wants to do what Democrats never did, take their case to court doesn’t matter. He hates Trump, and his precious news media hates Trump. The trial in the news media is all that matters.

          2. I have undoubtedly written a total of more than 200 pages here making all sorts of allegations, and still you don’t believe me. I bet if I were to asks for affidavits and allegations of Trump fraud, I could do way better than that. Would you believe it then? Should a court believe it?

            BTW, what is your authority for that last?

          3. Liz,

            Sounds like the PA Federal District Court judge was unimpressed. He said that there was not enough evidence to disenfranchise a single voter, much less the whole state. He dismissed Trump’s case “with prejudice”.

          4. “You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.”

            Indeed. Maybe when all the lies you’ve been fed finally turn to sand in your throat.

            “Liz, tsalmon does not even want to consider the possibility Democrats stole the election.”

            “Possibility”? Sure. There is a “possibility” that I will win the lottery tomorrow (I imagine those odds would get better if I actually played).

            “So, the fact that Trump’s team wants to do what Democrats never did, take their case to court doesn’t matter.”

            Define “case” cause yes, it would kinda matter if Republicans had one. So far, not so much, and in fact, none at all.

            “He hates Trump . . . “

            Nope. Love the guy. I’m an optimist at heart (even more so lately). Like Doug, I’m taking the long view. As a warning to our worst angels, Trump’s incompetence could be the best thing for this country in the long run. Maybe soon when our grandkids look up “Populist White Nationalist Demagogue” in the dictionary, it will say “see Donald J. Trump” and then, “but thankfully for the Republican, he was otherwise incompetent”.

            “and his precious news media hates Trump.”

            Didn’t you forget to call them “the hypocritical Democratic News media”. I’ll take that as progress.

            “The trial in the news media is all that matters.”

            Did I mention that a Federal District Court Judge dismissed the Trump clown car legal team’s case “with prejudice”. Do you know how hard it is to get your case dismissed before discovery and or any evidence is even presented? It means that the Plaintiff has failed to even state a claim at law in his complaint for which a case can be made. And to get it dismissed “with prejudice” means, “don’t even try to bring this again, anywhere, stupid”. Well, I added the “stupid” part, but it’s implied in the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.😊

          5. Here is one sworn affidavit signed by poll watcher under penalty of perjury with regard to what he observed, and conversations he had with county election workers during the course of the recount that he observed.
            This the sort of thing you’re comparing to random internet conversation/speculation?

          6. Your quasi-intellectual thought process for justifying Trump, as good a Trump apologist that you try to be to those who care about that, means absolutely zero because Trump does not follow your thought process. Never has, never will. He follows only his own. We are past the “election fraud” attempt to barricade the inevitable. We are not past Trump, The Mental Case.. and therein rests the thrill of watching all this until January 20. He’s not done. So.. we shall see how much of what he tries you can present as some great imaginary patriotic struggle against the “evil” that’s coming to take away guns, open borders, curtail free speech, completely turn the country into a Socialist state, blah-blah. Let’s see how truly “patriotic” you are when he endeavors to satisfy his immature anger and school yard tantrum when he manages to inflame a few right wing nutjobs to encircle the White House. I’d reconsider your role as a Trump Sicko-Fant. In the meantime, kick back and enjoy the pandemic that’s not a big deal and will go away soon. We are WAY past affidavit arguing. Apparently the courts are upholding.. Trump lost.. Biden is DULY elected.

          7. Let’s see how truly “patriotic” you are when he endeavors to satisfy his immature anger and school yard tantrum when he manages to inflame a few right wing nutjobs to encircle the White House.

            Will it look anything like the left wing nut jobs who ave been attacking people, burning and looting?

          9. 1. “Here say” is an out of court statement used to prove the truth of the matter asserted. Because the witness statement is not made in the crucible of a courtroom and subject to cross examination, an “affidavit” is here say. I can claim to have seen little green men from mars steal the election for Joe Biden and sign my allegations in from of a notary. I may even believe that I saw what I think I saw. This, in and of itself, is not admissible evidence.

            2. Plaintiffs, especially in elections cases, must exhaust ALL administrative remedies before going to court. Depending upon the state, this may include filing a complaint with the Secretary of State or elections boards.

            3. Even assuming real court admissible evidence of voter fraud, administrative malfeasance or election tampering (fraud was specifically not alleged in court BTW), and that all administrative remedies have been exhausted, isolated incidents and allegations do not meet the burden of proof necessary to overturn an entire election, or even to disenfranchise the voters in a single precinct. This is, for very good reasons, an extremely high burden in most states and under federal law.

            4. Injunctive relief, as a form of equitable remedy, also provides a particularly high bar of evidence for Plaintiffs to meet.

            Stop listening to and reading the nonsense that Trump’s crazy C string lawyers and political hacks are making in flop sweat, hair dye streaming, ghost of Hugo Chavez invoking press conferences, and pay attention to admissible facts and laws. Note that all of Trump’s real lawyers are abandoning the Trump campaign like vultures off a rotting carcass that is picked clean.

            Read the judge’s orders of dismissal in order to understand the flimsiness of these allegations. Here is one here:

            Click to access gov.uscourts.pamd.127057.202.0_1.pdf

          10. @tsalmon
            @Liz

            Federal District Court Judge Matthew William Brann is an Obama appointee. Instead of just dealing with the case, he is insulting the plaintiffs. That is clearly not his job. Consider how D. Plaintiffs’ Claims begins.

            Plaintiffs’ only remaining claim alleges a violation of equal protection. This claim, like Frankenstein’s Monster, has been haphazardly stitched together from two distinct theories in an attempt to avoid controlling precedent.

            Nothing in recent living memory matches the presidential politics of the last five years, and that is not just because of Donald Trump. The turnout for this election was unprecedented because the stakes are high. Yet instead of calmly dealing with the plaintiffs and focusing on the case, the judge was rude. Frankly, I have better things to do than read the rest of Brann’s opinion, but I think his objective is political, same as your objective. The judge is heaping ridicule on Trump’s lawyers to shame them into silence and to coerce the Penn. legislature into acquiescence with the results of an election everyone strongly suspects was stolen.

          13. Sorry Liz. I tried to provide a link to PA Federal District Court Judge Matthew W. Brann’s order, but I’m old. You can easily google it and read it yourself though. It gives a pretty good idea of the nonsense that Giuliani and co. are taking to court. I’d be embarrassed to death for my legal reputation to receive such an order from a federal judge, but those still willing to bring Trump’s ravings to court are pretty shameless at this point.

          14. Thanks, TSalmon.
            Yeah, Rudy probably wasn’t the right person to take this case to court (at least, from what I’ve heard tangentially).

          15. @Liz
            @tsalmon

            I am no big fan of Rudy, but he strikes me as reasonably competent.

            We need to place the blame where it belongs. When Rudy asked for time (https://www.westernjournal.com/obama-appointed-judge-pa-sends-outrageous-message-trump-attorney/) to take over the case (https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.pamd.127057/gov.uscourts.pamd.127057.152.0.pdf), the judge denied an extension (https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.pamd.127057/gov.uscourts.pamd.127057.153.0.pdf). Brann is a partisan. Hard for any lawyer to look good in front of a judge who want him to look bad.

          16. Doug, it helps to quote or address the person so one knows who you are talking to.
            If you are actually attempting to communicate and not just gratuitously troll.

          17. Yeah.. I can see where that might get confusing in here given there’s a whopping four of us who chat the most…. we could easily get confused in the crowd.

          18. Not to worry.. I did , in fact, dismiss it as defensive blah-blah.

            Who were you addressing here and what was it about?

          19. I was relating to your “undirected” post about nutjobs burning the White House chapel.. and the “nevermind”. Not so obvious apparently.

          22. General note to no one in particular:
            Let’s see how truly “patriotic” you are when he endeavors to satisfy his immature anger and school yard tantrum

            Just thought I’d repost that for its ironic value.

          24. Nothing in recent living memory matches the presidential politics of the last five years, and that is not just because of Donald Trump.

            Agreed, Citizen Tom.
            Now we have the Dominion software people asserting that cheating was impossible….when there was just a court case two weeks before the election which determined the opposite. I’d hope the folks involved with the software wouldn’t be so obviously political too. Just seems a conflict of interest. But I’m so confused with the plethora of competing information at this point.

          25. @Liz

            The confusion is by design. Most of the news media has just been ridiculing Trump, and they have been doing that for years. Now, if anything, they have just amped it up.

            If the accusation of election fraud is proven, some very important and powerful people will be losing everything they have. The public won’t stand for anything else.

            Since these people were already fighting Trump tooth and nail, probably to cover up things they already had to hide, one has to wonder what they were hiding. It really is not easy to conduct election fraud on a national scale, and Trump apparently had a substantial margin of victory, which made it even more difficult. Therefore, there was a high risk getting caught.

          26. More unfounded conspiracy theories spawned by Trump? Hardly. But.. I am impressed a bit that Liz is actually running a bit confused on all this. Not dissing her one bit here. Being confused over current reporting is a good thing. Far better than just accepting what the likes of Tucker and Hannity and Breitbart toss against the wall. Given my entire dislike for Trump as president has been since he revealed the whacked nut job he is mentally before the grand escalator entrance, and expressed my early warning along the way, I totally cite you and other Trump people as having surrendered their morality in order to achieve personal political preferences for their view of how America should be… even if you need a “hammer” like Trump to wreck our institutions and make us the laughing stock of the world. The old but-look-at-all-the-good-he’s-done excuse.
            The idea that Liz is a bit confused is the most positive and hopeful element to have been put to print in here.

          27. Liz,

            What’s going on with you and Doug? At the risk of being cancelled, I could say, “girls, girls, you’re both pretty”, but I won’t say that.

            “Thanks, TSalmon.
            Yeah, Rudy probably wasn’t the right person to take this case to court (at least, from what I’ve heard tangentially).“

            Meaning Rudy, it is strange how far the man has fallen. This was a prosecutor that put big mobsters away – America’s mayor after 9/11. Now he’s the victim of a Borat sexual punk, the punchline of late night talk shows and monger of so many conspiracy theories from convenient laptops to Burisma to the Venezuelan spectral election engineering. But there is no weird uncle Rudy without Trump to enable him.

            You can validly point out kooks one the left, but I’m not sure that there is anything leftist doppelgängers quite like Rudy and Trump.

            I come back to my question earlier – how do we get back to the same information universe where “liberal Democratic media” is just “the press”, the “deep state” is just “the state” and math and science are just data, probability and numbers, not a partisan monopoly? I see Trump and Leftist cancel culture and all the disinformation extremes on both sides as symptoms, rather than the problem. But I can’t figure out what the cure is. Maybe there isn’t one and the virtual reality of internet is where real democracy goes to actually die.

          31. And you are informed by.. Trump, the all wise, all knowing, all seeing, source of unquestionable credibility. I’ll take CNN.

          33. Tom,

            This is a sad old refrain. Whenever you just plain lose on the facts, the law, the science or the will of the people, then the facts, the science, the math, the law, and the will of the people must be corrupted with political bias. Don’t you see how that drips with dead ender cynicism?

            I’ve been voting against Trump more than for the Dems, but I know that single party rule is fascist eventually, no matter which party rules. If the loyal opposition must be destroyed even if you have to destroy all our institutions with it, what have you won? Wake up!

          34. @tsalmon

            It is a mystery to me which comment you are replying to. Since you ridicule the whole idea of election fraud, I doubt it makes a difference.

            Of course, I consider what Democrats have done to shred any attempt to maintain election integrity arrogantly and insanely foolish, and you don’t. So, we come at this from entirely different directions.

          36. @Liz

            Interesting. Since Trump was expecting election fraud, I am surprised he did not do a better job of assembling a legal team before the election. My guess he thought the time better spent campaigning, and he may have been right. Republican lawyers seem to be a scarce commodity.

          38. Tom,

            I can see how, with the side issues, it might be a little confusing, but I think it should be obvious that I was responding to your allegation that a judge is politically biased simply because Rudy has no evidence. Because the law on election fraud is clear, then you are accusing the Judge of corruption without even reading his order to know his grounds for dismissal.

            “Since you ridicule the whole idea of election fraud, I doubt it makes a difference.”

            I don’t “ridicule” the law on election fraud, unlike you, I just know something about what election fraud is and how it must be proved. If you read the judges’ orders, you would know that, despite the conspiracy theories that they are feeding you via the Right Wing punditry, the Trump clown car legal team (or what is left of it) isn’t even alleging election fraud in court, and you would know why – because they can’t prove any election fraud.

            And that’s the problem I’m pointing out. You are believing the case that the Trump and Rudy show is presenting to his rapt followers on Right Wing media sights and ignoring the ridiculous case they are failing to present at law in the actual courts going on now something like 30 plus dismissals. But you think REALLY know what’s going on because you don’t actually read anything outside your echo chamber.

          39. @tsalmon

            I said the judge indicated his bias by being rude.

            We got a special prosecutor to investigate Trump’s so-called collusion without any evidence. Didn’t bother you. You have been spewing anti-Trump tirades full of accusations without any evidence for years. The only time Democrats seem to be concerned about evidence is when they are covering it up.

            And stop complaining you are not a Democrat. We have evidence.

          40. We got a special prosecutor to investigate Trump’s so-called collusion without any evidence. Didn’t bother you. You have been spewing anti-Trump tirades full of accusations without any evidence for years. The only time Democrats seem to be concerned about evidence is when they are covering it up.

            The irony seems lost with half the population that if they are right this time, it would be the first time in four years. Yet they sound so sure.

          41. “And you are informed by.. Trump, the all wise, all knowing, all seeing, source of unquestionable credibility. I’ll take CNN.”

            Doug,

            For the most part I agree. The actual press doesn’t always get it right, but at best, the institution is in the truth and facts business, not the ideology business. Trump declared war on the truth and the facts, and when the press pushed back Trump declared war on the press (with the Orwellian claim that the press was “the enemy of the people”). Naturally tge press declared war back. Because the Republican Party became the Trumpublican Party of lies, demagoguery and corruption, the press went to war with the whole Republican Party too.

            Unfortunately, after the last couple of years in particular, thi, even for very old credible press institutions, this has become reflexive and reactionary (and even profitable). It’s more than just a righteous habit now to actively oppose anything Trump or Republican, it’s an addiction. And the first step for getting over an addiction is to recognize that it might be becoming a problem. In a post Trump Republic that is to be viable democracy, the press has to be able to push back on everybody. Single Party hegemony with the Dems in charge and the press on their side is fascist too, don’t you think?

          42. A very credible summation except for the fact that Trump is an individual and while he, for all practical purposes, “declared war on the press”.. the press is not represented by a singular entity from which it takes it’s marching orders. As you know, it is a collection of businesses.. and a business exists to make a profit for its owners, many times shareholders. FOX chooses to make a profit representing a strong pro-Trump Conservatism, which celebrates Trump’s lies and misdirection by being his echo.. or his megaphone, whichever works better, truth be damned. That is a large segment of the voting public as we now realize following the election. Big bucks. But here’s more toward what you were suggesting…. Trump has literally sucked the air… or, dominated, each and every day’s news cycle with reportable news. That means, even if someone wanted to spend broadcast time being a critic to some Dem… time would not be allocated simply because the Prez is more important. To top that off, THIS Prez has been like no other Prez in modern history because he’s a behavioral maverick and meandering buffoon… and sends common sense and norms right into the basement creating shock & awe in the media. Addiction? How about more like inertia. Whichever it is, it’s gonna be cold turkey after January 20. Here’s a possible realization… once Trump is gone and the pandemic subsides.. the major media outlets.. AND late night comedy… are going into a viewer slump across the board… and likely media advertisers will pull back. My concern is that the media… the alleged enemy of Trump… just might keep Trump “alive” to maintain news relevance. Reporting on the Biden administration will be extremely boring. I would much prefer that Trump fade into the void.

          43. Just a heads up about Judge Brann. Yes, appointed under Obama. What Tom neglected to tell: ” He also spent years as a Republican Party official in Pennsylvania and was active in the Federalist Society and National Rifle Association” .

            Tom spare me your rebuff, I know you are just now shouting “RINO!”

          44. @marmoewp

            You are trying to shut me up on my own blog? How modern Liberal of you!

            Actually, I think pointing out the judge was an Obama appointee more than sufficient. Trump spent much of his first term fighting off judges making clearly unconstitutional decisions, some of which were just absurd. My “favorite” was about the census. Cannot ask someone if they are a citizen? With all the nonsense on the census, that’s unconstitutional? And a RINO provided the deciding vote.

            Coming from Roberts, supposedly he was rebuking Trump, this was both sad and funny.

            We do not have Obama judges or Trump judges, Bush judges or Clinton judges. What we have is an extraordinary group of dedicated judges doing their level best to do equal right to those appearing before them. (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/rare-rebuke-chief-justice-roberts-slams-trump-comment-about-obama-n939016)

            Roberts turned out to be a RINO. W Bush had to be pressured to appoint Conservative judges. Why? Perhaps it has to do with what they teach in our schools, especially our law schools, these days. Conservatives — really originalists — are scarce in our schools.

          45. Doug,

            You may be right my friend, but a little more boring would be nice. The media has gone pretty Mad Max these days. Just looked at Liz’ RedState article and it reads like one of Giuliani’s fever dreams.

            The basic concept was that Trump is somehow, by legal magic, falling up the stairs to the Supremes where all their best Right Wing tribalist wet dreams will all be granted by the good robed wizards.

            RedState, that bastion of conservative truthfulness is almost as old as the NYT, give or take a couple of hundred years, and was cofounded by an admitted college plagiarist who was fired by the Washington Post.

            People, again, if the story, in this case that bad lawyering screwed up and magically, mysteriously, in some convoluted fashion actually won when the judge dismissed the case “with prejudice”, sounds too good to be true, you guessed it, it is too good to be true.

            Joe Biden will be sworn in on January 20. But please do be careful what you fantasize for when you rub that magic lantern – if the SCOTUS actually were to be stupid enough to somehow steal an election that Biden won by now almost six million votes, and by not even a close electoral college count, they would destroy themselves as an institution and perhaps our institutional democracy in the suicide pact. That genie who comes out of your bottle may not be that nice.

          46. @Tom

            Forseeing your reply and saying spare me it is “trying to shut you out of your own blog”?!?!?!? Wow! I’ll try to walk more softly when you are near. I was not aware, that you are so delicate.

            Anyway, I find it astounding, that the reocord of having spent ones life on a straight Republican ticket is wiped out, not to be mentioned again, because Judge Matthew William Brann, recommended to the position by Republican Senator Pat Toomey and confirmed by unanimous consent, was appointed under the Obama administration.

            The staining of people, it runs deep with you, Tom.

  4. I have a wait and see approach to this.
    I think if we don’t see the “kraken” released I’m going to stop believing it exists.
    I do think it’s interesting the same people who believed the Russians rigged the last election believe now that elections can’t be rigged.
    Also interesting they are rejecting the same “long list” of evidence tactic that they embraced for…four years now.
    I’ve given to the Trump legal defense fund. I’d like to see a better, more uniform process for elections so this doesn’t happen again. As I said before, this was not the time to try new election techniques.
    But when this is done and the process complete I will not act like the Democrats did.

    1. Part of me almost looks forward to seeing what happens when all of these thousands of monsters the liberals purposefully created turn on them. If it didn’t impact the rest of us so much. Similar to when Assange was praised as long as his information only killed military. But oh boy the moment he messed with the DNC’s officially anointed candidate…

      1. Liz,

        Wow! That’s a rather amazing revisionist history of the Assange crime spree. Assange himself blames Obama for coming after him during that presidency, and still hopes, like his partner in crime, Roger Stone, to get some kind of Trump clemency or pardon for not spilling the beans on this well timed releases of Russian hacked DNC emails.

          1. Uh. Are you talking about Chelsey Manning. I don’t believe it was a full pardon and it was conditional.

            Who prosecuted her to begin with? She spent considerable jail time. Her release was on humanitarian grounds rather than because anyone thought she wasn’t guilty.

          3. Bradass87 was sentenced to 35 years under the UCMJ.
            Obama commuted his sentence to time served (6 years).

          4. Liz,

            That’s not a pardon. The Obama administration found, tried and convicted Manning to begin with. Manning was not some kind of an arch traitor – she was (and is) at worst a very troubled individual who thought she was doing the right thing (in keeping with many of your previously stated beliefs I might add) by uncovering what she thought were the injustices of the post 9/11 wars that have lead to the wasted deaths of thousands of American soldiers. While, as a naval officer, I don’t necessarily agree with the commutation, as a lawyer and a human being, I get it.

            Faced with a Trump loss, you seem to have developed a more binary (us versus them) tribal partisan way of turning the actual facts on their heads to justify whatever point that you think suits your political argument in the moment. You usually debate much better than this. What’s up?

          1. Yes. Very true Tom. Stone, Trump’s very own self described “dirty trickster” could be describe as “an idiot”.

          2. @tsalmon

            Stone was convicted of process crimes, not for colluding with the Russians. There are whole bunch of people who are skating for lying to Congress because they served the cause of the Democrats. Lots of them got jobs at CNN and book contracts.

    2. @Liz

      Donated too.

      The hypocrisy reeks. When they win, at least when we are supposed to believe they have won, election fraud becomes an impossible, silly joke to Democrats. When they lose, however, the Russians are to blame. And why? How do we know? The only piece of evidence they had was an obvious joke. Nevertheless, thanks to a spineless senator who became the Attorney General and a media uproar full of sound and fury signifying nothing, Democrats got their special prosecutor.

    3. Amazing the almost hypnotic control this clown has over his supporters. The more lies and contrived fear he blathers out the more people give him money.

      1. @Doug

        You really ought to compare the amount Democrats and Republicans spend. It is really kind of weird. Democrats claim to be very interested in campaign finance reform, but they brag about how much money their candidates get. The objective of campaign finance reform is to stop spending by people they don’t approve.

        1. No argument from me about campaign money reform. But that’s hardly a priority given all the other more immediate problems.. like the pandemic, the economy, passing emergency aid across the spectrum.. stuff like that. Although I know the pandemic is not a problem or of any importance for Trump people because Trump told them it wasn’t.

    4. Liz,

      Here is your Kraken:

      After decades of not appearing in a federal court Giuliani asked a federal court judge to invalidate nearly seven million votes because of, Giuliani’s words, “widespread, nationwide voter fraud.” Later, after being asked by the judge for evidence, Giuliani said, “This is not a fraud case.” (Claiming “fraud” in federal court without evidence will get the lawyers and their clients sanctioned).

      “You’re alleging that two individual plaintiffs were denied the right to vote”, U.S. District Court judge said to Giuliani. “But at bottom, you’re asking this court to invalidate more than 6.8 million votes, thereby disenfranchising every single voter in the commonwealth. Can you tell me how this result can be justified.”

      When Giuliani didn’t have a definitive answer, the judge appeared to be losing patience.

      Yep, that’s a dud of a Kraken alright . . . maybe more like a slightly ghoulish merman with a black oil slick melting down his face.

      Comical . . . in a sad sort of way. This is how the Trump presidency will ultimately be remembered, an unreality tv show that finally flopped when it kept doubling down on sicker more exotic distractions until it became too fantastic to be entertaining, much less believable, anymore. Giuliani is the Gary Busey and the Meatloaf of the anticlimactic demise of the Trump tv presidency.

      BTW, Liz, no one ever asserted that the voting systems that elected Trump were “rigged”, only that the Russians, using FB and other social media, influenced voters. Something that all the intel services and the media platforms themselves asserted.

    5. Y’all please keep sending money down a legal rathole and to finance Trump’s post presidency grifts.

      While you have been counterproductively discouraging Republican voters’ confidence in our election institutions, I sent a few bucks to the Democrats in the GA runoffs. If Moscow Mitch is made the senate minority leader, maybe we can actually get something done to help all Americans in the multiple crises that face our nation right now, rather than just making Mitch’s rich puppet masters richer.

    6. BTW, Liz, no one ever asserted that the voting systems that elected Trump were “rigged”,
      Oh yes they did.
      That was the first story. “Collusion” remember?
      This evolved until it was just some FB/ social media memes (the real story).
      And there were pro-Hillary memes too.
      And if you think Russia is the only country that has tried/is trying to influence our elections via social media, I have a Kraken in the closet to sell you.

      1. Liz,

        You will have to provide something more specific. Hillary conceded within 24 hours of Trump’s presidency being called, and Obama called about the same time to congratulate Trump and invite Trump to the Whitehouse (he went there on November 10th).

        I don’t recall any formal legal instance where Hillary Clinton, President Obama, or Democrats as a body, contested the institutional electoral legitimacy of the Trump presidency, even though Trump lost the popular vote and won the critical electoral states by much smaller vote margins than Biden.

      2. … I have a Kraken in the closet to sell you“

        Is that what you call Rudy? Probably, get him at quite a discount these days. Only the Trumpublicans would be willing to pay $20,000 a day for his . . . uhh . . . legal (?) services.

        1. @tsalmon

          Where was this skepticism when Democrats went after Trump with absolutely nothing? Sound like hypocrisy to me.

          You are not presenting any arguments. You are ridiculing and trying to shame your opponents into silence. That is not a sign of wisdom, strength or maturity.

          After the behavior of Democrats the last four years, Conservatives have plenty of good reasons to suspect Democrats morally capable of stealing the election. You want to argue against and ridicule a case that has not even been presented yet. I could not care less. Your case has been presented, and the people who presented it belong in jail.

  6. The Voter fraud is so obvious but the left has managed to recruit the world to deny Trump another term and will do and say anything to deny any wrong doing….It’s like a 5 year old trying to plead his case to his parents…

    2. I am interested in the “so obvious” bit.

      I have seen various supposed examples of systematic voter fraud presented on this blog.

      – Claims of voter turnout exceeding 100% fell apart, they were based on neglecting election day registration.
      – Benford’s law claims fell apart, as the requirements to apply it were not met by the data
      – Claims of dead people voting? The cases where names are given that I have seen fell apart.

      There have been two cases in Georgia, where presumably Republican election officers in predominantly Republican counties forgot to count thousands of votes. I do not see how Democrats would have played a role in this, but try to keep an open mind. Without knowing the details, I would hazard the guess it was culpable negligence.

      So, what actual allegations are there. All I can see are (frivolous?) Republican court cases being thrown out left, right and center.

      As you tell us the fraud is “obvious”, perhaps you can help me to see it, Bruce. In case you don’t know me, I’m German and definetly not to be considered Republican, but I am honestly interested to understand your side of the argument.

      1. In the past two weeks at least 30 Trumpian election lawsuits have been tossed out for lack of evidence.. and presumably Trump has packed the legal system with his judge appointments. Seems to me this says something.

        1. So now Trump is turning to pressuring individual election officials to prevent the certification of votes and at the same times puts them into the public spot light, which results in death threats to them and their families. Very few GOP politicians oppose this in public, quite a few important ones support this. I never would have thought anything remotely similar to be possible in a modern Western state.

          1. Let me be the one American who is not embarrassed by our American democracy here. I hope the world is watching because within American democracy this is likely our finest hour. “But wait, Dougie-boy.. how can that possibly be?” Because when all this nonsense-Trump crap passes.. our Constitution will still be there… and it is there because regardless what side of the current divide you are in.. both sides hold to it. It’s that document that binds our collective divisiveness together, especially at times when our divisiveness seems all there is. Our form of democracy is not perfect and no one ever has declared that. We present our “exceptionalism” because of our ability to keep to the rulebook. No question, any democracy can “look bad” but in our democracy, in doing so, we are showing to ourselves and the world that mankind has created no better form of government to date to stand the test of time. It won’t last forever because nothing does. But what it happening now is not the end of American democracy but the exercising of our collective will as the strongest nation on earth to continue our democracy…. and to continue our tradition of providing a stabilizing force in the world. Our internal struggles is exactly why our Constitution was written…. inside it’s words are the path to a stable democracy. Not even a Trump can change that.

          2. @Doug

            You voted for people who despise the Constitution.

            The Constitution is a document that the People use to hold those we elect accountable. Unfortunately, we have spent at least the last 110 years weakening the usefullness of the document. We have done stupid things like 16th and 17th Amendments, and we have been witless enough to let politicians educate us (run our schools) so that most people actually believe the Supreme Court is the final authority on the Constitution, not us.

            So, brag about the Constitution all you want. Then read Article II, Section 1, and think about how we conducted this election. Think about states like Pennsylvania where the laws passed by state legislature were overridden by the executive branch, the state supreme court, and local governments.

          3. No, Tom… none of that works anymore. No evidence of wide election fraud. Like you said in 2016… “duly elected”. Sorry, buddy.

          4. @marmoewp

            It is Trump’s fault when Democrats threaten people? What kind of logic is that?

            What is possible in a modern democratic state? People have not changed. If anything, we act much more like Pagans than we did 100 years ago.

          6. It is interesting that you blame Trump for the death threats against election officials for performing their respective jobs. That part of the democratic process?
            His lawyers, too, are receiving death threats. But then so are a lot of other people. The democrats have promised to make sure anyone associated with Trump or supportive of Trump will not be able to feed their families in the future.

          8. All in the interest of “unity” of course.
            Kind of like the peace that comes with looting and riots.

          9. A Democratic state politician told a female Republican election official to “think about your kids” and named their likely school, amid a tense stand-off on Tuesday night that briefly saw vote totals in Michigan held up from certification over unexplained irregularities.

            Five second search.
            Yes, Doug, re-education camps too. Can’t wait.
            This in their own words.

          10. Glad you’re looking forward to it Doug.
            Says a lot about you.
            Like those Marines you said are glad other people will die so they won’t get shot at.

          12. @Doug

            I have learned that what matters is doing what is right. I know that if I supported a crooked politician who won I would feel worse than I would if I had supported an honest politician who lost.

          13. Yes.. and I also prefer to sit in my high moral plane and opt for siding for what is right.. but what is right is subjective, relative, and constantly open to criticism.

          15. Yes, but not as crappy as it feels to be shot at.
            When put in harm’s way for no good reason.

            You know, Doug, if you had ever shown any form of contrition for saying something so stupid, I wouldn’t keep bringing it up. You still stand by that imbecilic comment.
            If I’d ever said something so stupid, my response would be, ‘oh, good grief I didn’t mean it that way…” But you just double and triple down and don’t care.

          17. After all, it would require admitting Trump did something right.
            So between admitting Trump was right and wanting our Marines to die…
            no contest eh?

          18. What’s with all this reference to the Marines thing you latched onto? I’ve explained all that ad nauseum yet it’s your constant lament to use to discredit me… when there’s a lot of other things you could easily attempt to discredit me on… and failed. (gotta love testosterone.) Let’s gird our loins. I once spelled that wrong and everyone went around looking for lions to gird.

          20. marmoewp,
            I stop listening to anyone using racism as a political bludgeon now.
            If you want to believe this person when he claims Detroit is under Jim Crow, feel free. I don’t have the time.

          21. Doug:
            What’s with all this reference to the Marines thing you latched onto?
            When we bombed the Iranian terrorist leader, I explained that our Marines were being targeted and killed on a regular basis by this person (Soleimani), and they are probably glad the guy who has been killing them is dead.
            You said (paraphrasing) “I’m sure those Marines are happy other people are going to die to keep them safe”. (paraphrasing…close enough)

            I’ve explained all that ad nauseum yet it’s your constant lament to use to discredit me…

            I’m not lamenting, I’m damn angry about it.
            If you take that back…okay, accepted.

          22. (Yet again….) Why not go back and provide context on the entire exchange… and endeavor to provide some common sense as to my own proclivity.. which you knew full well by that point… that I am not inclined to overtly dis the military given I am a vet… and immediately prefer to assume my remark was not some form of sarcasm to our discussion but rather some animus against the military that readily fit your own narrative and opinion to discredit me. Now.. I don’t mind being discredited in general.. it’s what we do blathering in opinion blogs. If you feel the need to take some sort of high moral offense toward a person who has an opposite opinion to your’s in a medium such as this… that’s on you, and you might wanna ease up on yourself. If you actually feel as appalled toward me as you seem to indicate I’m not so sure I would accept a simple apology. So.. seems like you need an audience to put me in my place. I could demand an apology from you for daring to presume what you “think” I inferred.

          23. I am absolutely appalled at what you said, Doug.
            As I’ve mentioned again and again.
            You could have said it was sarcasm at the time (really poorly placed, ambiguous sarcasm). You did not.
            Perhaps you could explain now why you said what you said and what it was supposed to mean?
            Go on…

          24. I honestly don’t recall verbatim to provide you that satisfaction. I will say I am sorry from the human side that you’ve grown with this festering.. but again.. that’s on you. In fact, we could have exchanged emails if you were all that concerned, thus relieving everyone in here from experiencing your discontent and our exchanges. Honestly, given this medium, I am not so sure our current exchange today isn’t some sort of character play for the masses. You don’t like me then just plain ignore me. Jeez.

          25. The thread:
            https://citizentom.com/2020/01/08/we-win-looks-like-we-did/comment-page-1/

            @Doug: “I think I flushed a toilet at work at that exact time as well. Seems a little too coincidental to me too.”
            Me: I know you’re attempting humor here, but Route Irish (near the location of Soleimani’s death) was a vital transit corridor that Soleimani had turned into a death zone for US service members (from sniper fire to IEDs).

            You: I am very sure there are many who travel that road that appreciate Trump risking further casualties and deaths in order to make the road safer.

          26. You’re way too obsessed over this… and I can only imagine your fury at home as you type all this. So.. let’s try this to end all this. What is it that you want of me, Liz?

          27. What is it that you want of me, Liz?

            I want you to say you were wrong to disparage our military that way.
            And I want you to mean it.

          30. @Liz
            Did that man in that video make a death threat? Yes or No? Do you, or do you not, stand by your claim, that he made a death threat, that he commited a serious crime?

            I do not care, whether or not you find him reprehensible; being considered reprehensible is not a crime, after all.

          31. Marmoewp,
            If I were on the receiving end of that video I would definitely feel threatened.
            No, he isn’t saying anyone will kill her, directly, on video.
            You were the one to mention death threats (first).
            I am one degree of separation away from a lawyer who, as a result of working for Trump, has to have 24 hour surveillance on her home. She can’t stay with her son and his family because law enforcement told her he too would then be on the receiving end of death threats.
            Any casual observer of the obvious can note where the violence is coming from. It’s in front of our faces every day.

          32. @Liz
            @marmoewp

            The polls were off, and they are still useless because Trump supporters know how hateful Democrats can be. We have seen the vendetta against our president and his supporters, and we have seen no charges against Democrats even when the evidence is in plain sight. We have also seen Democrats have no respect for the Constitution. Therefore, we have no reason to believe they respect the rule of law except when it suits them.

            Fact is Democrats call anything that they disagree with hate speech, and they will use discrimination and violence to shut people up.i

            We live in perilous times. Just the way it is. Marmoewp, you want to call us wrong, stupid, or crazy? Well, I think that is part of the problem. When you insist on focusing on one isolated detail and ignoring the big picture, that is just being partisan.

            The rioters this year were Democrats in Democrat strongholds, and Democrat politicians encouraged the riots. Why? I still don’t know, but I guess the fear they generated served a purpose.

      2. There are 100’s of voting irregularitieswhich are being swept under the rug…there are over voting taking place where say 1 million registered voters in a state end up with 1.5 million votes…how does that happen.Why did they stop the counting when they saw that trumpwas going to win and then in the morning had mysteriously found several thousand votes.They also have several voting machine problems…The recount in georgia was a scam,they refused to match up an verify signatures ,they just recounted all the votes they already had…I don’t care if trump wins or loses but i want to know the election was fair.

        1. “where say 1 million registered voters in a state end up with 1.5 million votes”
          Name the state. That should be trivially easy for you. If you want to go the extra mile, name the counties. We can have a look at the data.

          In the meantime, that sounds a lot like the illfounded 100% plus voter turnout number claims. Voter turnout is usually calculated as votes cast divided by voting age population. If you want to get higher numbers, you divide votes cast by registered voters. If you want to cry hell and high water, you deceptively or incompetently divide votes cast by people registered before election day plus votes cast by people registering on election day, and then divide by people registered before election day only. This way you easily get 125% “voter turnout” with only legal votes cast. That is EXACTLY what has been done by Republicans with Wisconsin results. I know, because I checked.

          “Why did they stop the counting when they saw that trumpwas going to win and then in the morning had mysteriously found several thousand votes”
          Those mysteriously appearing votes are called absentee ballots, they are legal, and from registration data alone you can see, that a considerably larger portion of registered Democrats chose to vote that way, than Republicans did. So what you witnessed is not something irregular, but exactly what you would expect to happen. If you advocate to throw these votes out, you advocate to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of eligible voters who legally cast their votes. Just as the GOP is trying to do in Wayne County.

          2. Bruce, I asked you before: Show me. You have yet to do so. Assertions simply do not cut it.

            As a former U.S. Marine, you know that making decisions on the base of faulty intel is a recipe for disaster. I have demonstrated above and in comments to recent posts on this blog, how many of the outragious Republican claims of evidence of fraud fall apart under the smallest bit of scrutiny. I posit that the intel you rely on is faulty and that you place your trust into the wrong sources. You can either brush this off as an attempt to distract you, or you can start asking hard questions on your side. It’s your choice to make, not mine.

      1. No….I suggesting the the world has decided trump is not good for the world and want a leftist running the United States…Trump was focused on America First and other countries lost a lot of money and support.The democrats are willing to help these countries and give them money.trump is not the victim,the 80 million people that support his ideology are the victims.

          1. The world and US better under perpetual wars?
            Would things be better if we had dueling no fly zones over Syria right now?
            Things going well for Europe when we were blowing up the middle east?

          2. Things better when China, a nation with no environmental controls, is empowered and paid to offset carbon credits while actively polluting the world more than any other nation on the planet?

          3. European liberals have been screaming about our aggressive foreign policies for decades. Now a person with a different approach is elected and he’s bad for everyone eh? I’m reminded of the Balkan air campaign. Every day the protestors would put a white cross in front of the runway, outside the gate. They didn’t worry about our pilots….no, they wanted them to get shot down of course and called them cowards for flying so high. No one else could do the night bombing missions because European airspace doesn’t allow that sort of training.

      1. Tom,

        You mean what they are calling Trump’s Clown Show Coup? Yes that is indeed sad. Upon close scrutiny, all these Trump lawyer conspiracy theory claims are debunked.

        Let’s suppose, as expected, all of Trump’s lawyers continue to get laughed out of court (even in front of Republican Trump appointed judges). and no legal evidence of any substantial fraud continues to be found. But then, let’s say without any proof of fraud, Trump pressures the Republican legislatures not to certify their elections and vote their electors for Trump instead of following the will of their constituents?

        That is what the Trump team is publicly saying that they are aiming at now. If, due to a technicality, Trump were to be successful in overturning an election where he lost the popular vote by more than five million votes, it would break our Republic. Do you want this?

        Even if Trump is unsuccessful, Republican Trump supporters will think that their votes don’t mean anything so why vote? We have two runoffs that will decide the Senate in GA. Georgia Democrats have an incentive to come out (or mail in their ballots), but Georgia Republicans, because they think their votes don’t matter, should stay home. Trump is not only salting the earth for our country’s institutions, he is doing so for his own party. Very, very sad for you.!

        1. @tsalmon

          You could be right, but I find it rather disturbing that you won’t even consider the possibility you are wrong. Trump may be evil personified, just as the hypocritical Liberal Democrat news media would have us believe. Nevertheless, his legal team has no reason to pursue these charges if they don’t believe they are true. In addition, Liberal Democrats are not laughing. They spitting and hissing like vipers.

          1. “You could be right, but I find it rather disturbing that you won’t even consider the possibility you are wrong.”

            I tend to be skeptical by nature. I’ve read summaries of why each of the cases have been dismissed so far (something like over 20 of them). I also know a little about the law in these cases.

            You cannot come in to a court and ask for any kind of equitable relief (such as a TRO or an injunction) for anything, much less an election before it has been administrably certified without substantive proof of fraud widespread enough to change the result of the election. This is a high standard:

            1. Because administrative remedies and functions must be exhausted. For example, the Republican Secretary of State just completed a hand recount without any substantial change. Other states have their own remedies for recounts. I can tell you from experience, however, these things rarely change anything by more than a few hundred votes and that change is usually attributable to slight administrative imperfections in the voting process (human error) with just a very few extremely rare instances of actual fraud (such as ineligible voters or double voting) which often occurs on both sides. In a small or very close election, this might matter, but not in a statewide election involving thousands of votes. Also, for very good reasons of separation of powers, judges are extremely reticent to overturn an election while the counting process is still going on. This level of proof has not been found – instead just the opposite is being found, election integrity, even by Republican election officials.

            2. A few hundred affidavits (many of which are inadmissible hearsay upon hearsay) are meaningless. One would need thousands of actual witnesses of actual voter fraud, and that fraud would have to be proof of enough illegal votes cast by one side to overcome the presumption that the election officials are simply doing their jobs. Furthermore, every time these affidavit allegations are chased to ground, they end up being ridiculous. (One of the cases where it was claimed that a supposed dead person was voting, it turned out that that the 96 year old widow, like many older women, had always gone by her husband’s name). Again just the opposite is being maintained, even by Republicans.

            3. CISA, the US Government’s own Trump established agency for monitoring elections, until recently run by Trump’s own handpicked appointee who was fired for doing his job, has joined other nationwide elections officials in calling this the most free and fair election ever, and saying that allegations to the contrary have been shown to be baseless. This includes all the Right Wing media’s. favorite conspiracy theories which CISA one by one debunked in its Rumor Control website. Look it up yourself, if Trumo has not pulled the website down.

            As a media source yourself, Tom, you have a moral responsibility to check this stuff out before you spread lies and disinformation, even if it’s coming from the President and his minions.

            As for Democrats laughing, did you actually watch the Rudy clown show with flop sweat streaming his hair die down his face surrounded by a bunch of political hacks. If that ridiculous display of conspiracy theories and fabrications actually manages to break our Republic, then, you are right, no one on either side who loves our institutional democracy will be laughing any more though.

            If they lose, which is what we all ought to be wishing for, then the Republican Party’s credibility will be set back years, if not decades, as the Party of lies and conspiracy theories. Once Trump is out of the White House, how many times do you think you can spin up Trump voters with lies and conspiracy theories before they either turn to violence or just walk away from the voting machines forever in disgust, either for their own party or for the institution of voting itself.

          2. @tsalmon

            Did the Trump Legal Team submit the cases that were dismissed? The actual facts may not fit the hypocritical Liberal Democrat news media’s narrative. That’s why it is important to reference other sources.

            1. Recounting illegals votes does not address the issue. The fact someone calls himself a Liberal, Progressive, Republican, Conservative, or whatever does prove whether that person is what he claims to be.
            2. The Trump people have more than a couple of hundred affidavits. The problem is that Democrats “own” the election systems in the contested areas. So, affidavits are often just about the best evidence they can get at this point.

            You are like the fool who claims people have the right to send their children to private schools and wilfully ignores the fact we have to pay taxes to fund public schools, and we cannot use that money to fund the education of children in private schools. Why? It would upset the teachers unions.

            3. Not only did I watch the Trump Legal Team deliver a fine presentation, I watched what hypocritical Democrats have been doing the last four years.

            Trump’s people will be going to court.

          3. “Trump’s people will be going to court.”

            When? Anytime soon, Tom? Although.. you never know.. throw enough c*** against the wall and something… or some Trump appointment… will stick.

          4. Tom,

            Sorry, I’m not ready to change the subject yet simply because you are wrong and you know it.

            I understand that you are biased, and you therefore assume everyone else is as biased as you are. But you’ve worked at the polling places. Would you be willing to conspire to cheat/lie/commit fraud to get Donald Trump re-elected? If not, why would you assume that average, mostly black folks, in these polling places that Democrats supposedly control would do what you would not do? Because you think mostly white Republicans in Republican leaning precincts are morally superior to city dwelling Democrats? If so, how do you explain the suburbs voting for Biden, even in places like GA and Philadelphia? Your binary view of the world is as asinine logically as it is psychologically.

            My experience of studying the law for nearly 30 years is that most people follow legal institutions, not so much because they are afraid of getting caught, but because they have built up confidence in those institutions until that confidence becomes a habit. People stop at stop lights automatically because they have a habitual confidence in the institution of stop lights whether they are Republicans or Democrats, live in cities or the country, are evangelicals or atheists.

            If you and Rudy and Trump succeed in destroying confidence in democratic institutions of elections in blue places, do you seriously think that you can keep it from being destroyed everywhere? If you don’t succeed, but manage only to sew doubt for Republicans, do you really think that is a good thing for your cause?

          5. @tsalmon

            So, when Rudy and look at all the shady things going on during this election, including obvious violations of constitutional law, if we complain, we are racists. Biden is black?

            And you wonder why I think we have to set up our election systems with the assumption that people will cheat if they think they can get away with it. Yet Democrats, who run around calling everyone racists, want us to believe everyone can be trusted, that charges of fraud are just a joke. How do you even male sense to yourself?

          7. Not a fan of Trump’s former national security advisory, John Bolton, but he does have a snarky sense of humor. Speaking of Rudy’s press conference, Bolton said:

            “Their basic argument is this was a conspiracy so vast and so successful that there’s no evidense of it.”

            Bolton went on to say, “Now if that’s true, I really want to know the people who pulled this off. We need to hire them at the C.I.A.”

          8. @tsalmon

            You are a lawyer. You know that Trump’s legal team is not the FBI. At this point what they have to show are constitutional law violations and good reasons to suspect fraud. Since they have to their case before a judge in court, they are not going to show their hand early. Given that, they have already made a convincing case.

          10. “So, when Rudy and look at all the shady things going on during this election, including obvious violations of constitutional law, if we complain, we are raciist. Biden is black?“

            Tom,

            So I pointed out the simple fact that most the votes that Republicans want to throw out just happen to be in predominantly black districts in places like Detroit and Atlanta, and that is the main moral preblem about all that I said that you choose to feel aggrieved about. 😄

            I guess I’m batting better than .500.

            Good times . . . .

          11. @tsalmon

            Read up on the law of holes. When we start digging up tons of dirt, if you bury yourself with it, that is a sign of bad planning.

            Consider. You clowns want reparations for blacks. Why? There are problems in black communities? Yet these areas have been run by Democrats for decades.

            It isn’t the color; it is who runs these areas, especially the schools.

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