From herehere, and here.

Lies run circles around us, loudly exclaiming. “Look at me!” “Look at me!” But it takes time and effort to get at the truth. So, we have a problem. It looks like Democrat states like Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania have been scheming to rig the vote for months using mail-in ballots. To that end have extended the vote count so that they have time to insert enough fraudulent ballots into the system and skew the election towards Biden? Have they given Republicans any reason to believe otherwise?

Consider what was said about the nature of a compromise in A PIC FOR LIZ. An election is a compromise, sometimes a bitter compromise. Consider what Democrats have said about President Donald Trump, their unceasing efforts to remove him from office and the threats some of them have made to riot if he wins again. Consider the charges from Republicans that Vice President Joe Biden accepted bribes from Russian, Ukrainian, and Chinese sources. Republicans clearly don’t trust Biden.

Since both sides are almost completely unhappy with the other’s candidate, why are Republicans voters obligated to accept the election of the Democrat’s candidate? Because he was elected fair and square? If it looks like Democrats have rigged the election at the polling locations they run, then why are Republicans obligated to accept the election of the Democrat’s candidate? What kind of compromise is that?

If Democrats do not regard election integrity as important, then why are Republicans supposed to assume Democrats are honest? If their candidate is plainly corrupt, why are Republicans suppose to trust Democrats? Are Republicans obligated to be gullible idiots or at least wise enough to insist upon an honest election.

Did Trump win the election? Probably. It certainly looks like Democrats tried to steal it.

  • Why were the news election polls so far off? That was not designed for voter suppression?
  • Why is Big Tech suppressing free speech, even our president’s tweets? Big Tech is not trying to rig the outcome?
  • Why did Democrats insist upon unconstitutionally changing the rules in the middle of the election? Don’t legislatures set the rules, not executive officials?
  • Why are Democrats so indifferent to election integrity? Why the ridiculous insistence upon voting by mail? Why don’t Democrats think voter ID is important?
  • Why don’t Democrats allow Republicans to monitor the ballot count?
  • Why are Democrats counting mail-in ballots that were not post marked before Election Day?
  • Why are Democrats still counting mail-in ballots — the ballots that were supposed to arrive first — after Election Day?

When the election results reek to high heaven, is now the time to accept the outcome Liberal Democrats demand?

  • If we cannot trust the results of our elections, how can we remain a free people? We cannot.
  • Are we suppose to accept their preposterous argument that election fraud doesn’t even exist? No. Of course not.
  • Are we suppose to just pretend that cheating is okay? No.

Pretending the problem does not exist is just a recipe for disaster. Now is the time to go to court and demand a thorough investigation. Now is the time to get behind President Trump and encourage him and his team to bring out the truth. When crooked people hide their dirty deeds in the dark of night, in pretense of honesty and prideful expertise, and in phony outrage, those seeking to know and expose the truth need to work harder, not give up.


If they cheated, why don’t we insist they vote again and do it right this time?


  1. Anyone who says this election was fair is pretty naive and willfully ignorant. In Wisconsin here, we had over 89% voter turnout, which is ridiculous. We had at least one district with 105% turnout! People dumping ballots, almost 100% for Biden, at 4:00 am in the morning! In Michigan, 118-year old William Bradley (died 1984) successfully voted by absentee ballot this year in Wayne County (Detroit), Michigan.

    This is not our grandfather’s Oldsmobile. The voter suppression and fraud being uncovered right now (by video and audio testimonies) is unprecedented because its so systemic nationwide. We have state governors and non-elected political hacks changing the rules, which they have no constitutional authority to do so. We are literally watching the election being stolen and the MSM and big tech are complicit. Trump is doing the right thing by fighting this thing until everything is uncovered (which will be a good thing for our political process, no matter who ends up winning).

    It is a false equivalency argument to assert that Trump supporters are not accepting the election, like Clinton supporters couldn’t do in 2016. I would accept Biden if I were reasonably confident that he won legally. But I have absolutely no confidence right now with what I already know, and all the evidence pouring in. This election has a totally different dynamic than any other in history with all the mail-in voting. Again, we have evidence of fraud in at least six different states, maybe more. This election is far from over, it will end up in Federal court. Unfortunately, we may not know who really won for some time. But, in this case, it’s worth waiting for. Otherwise, our election process is doomed. People just won’t vote anymore.

    1. @Mel Wild

      Thanks for an informative comment. Wisconsin is critical this time around too.

      I am still wondering just how much Google shadow bans my blog. I use to get many more hits during an election. Not now.

      Google is 90-95 percent of search engine business, but I only get half of my search engine hits from it.

      Given the complaints from the big Conservative names, I suppose I am suppose to be happy they largely ignore me.

      1. “I am still wondering just how much Google shadow bans my blog. I use to get many more hits during an election. Not now.”

        Don’t worry. I still love you bro. ❤️❤️❤️

      1. The voter turnout was unusually large in Wisconsin. Mel is correct about the 89 percent voter turnout. The link you’re citing is a different (apocryphal) claim.
        I’ll save you the trouble of looking up that “factcheck”, the explanation to that one is Wisconsin allows voter registration the day of the election. So the “real” voter turnout would be dividing by the entire rest of the voting age population which would be 72.5 percent instead of 89. That is true if all of the rest of Wisconsin registered on the day of the vote. Odds of that are…let’s say low.

        1. @Liz
          In the Wisconsin election 3289474 votes were cast. 3684726 voters were registered on Nov 1st, two days before the election and after the close of the registration period.
          Only using these number do you arrive at a 89% voter turnout. And guess what, that completely ignores that Wisconsin offers election day registration. I am looking at you, Mel, “In Wisconsin here”. At a guess, that’s how the 105% claim was created, too, by ignoring election day registrations.

          Anyway, Liz, you seem to think that 72,5% of the eligible population voting in a state with a Republican Governor, House and Senate is ridiculously high? Guess what, it’s only the third highest turnout,

          And yes, it is __normal__ for more than 10% of Wisconsin voters to register on election day. I checked the statistics.

          So, @Mel, @Liz, anyone, what about the above numbers should look suspicious to me? Are you really so gullible, that you simply parrot each and everyone crying “Outrage!!!”? What has become of “Trust, __but verify__”? I am sorry, if I rock your boat, but it looks like you are in serious need of having your boats rocked. Most of all, I am angry that people I care about are being lied to in this manner.

          1. And guess what, that completely ignores that Wisconsin offers election day registration.
            That is what I stated above.
            Where did the 72.5 percent number come from?
            When you divide the number of votes cast in Wisconsin — 3,278,963 as of Nov. 5 — by the voting-age population in Wisconsin (4,536,293), you get a turnout rate of 72.3%.

            Your figure requires that every other eligible voter in the state registers and votes the day of the election. As I said.
            Just reading your further frothing I think I’m done talking to you until you calm down.

          2. Just did the math to see.
            If you take the number of registered voters (3684726) and add ten percent, then put that into the equation instead of every single person in the state who was of age to register, it’s around 81 percent.

          3. Voter turnout is defined as votes cast divided by voting age population, __irrespective__ of registration status.

            Voting age population is 4,536,417 (official number from https://elections.wi.gov/sites/elections.wi.gov/files/2020-09/Voter%20Turnout%20Partisan-NonPartisan%20Through%20August%202020.xlsx)

            Votes cast from AP as reported by google as of today:
            Joe Biden 1,630,570
            Donald Trump 1,610,030
            Jo Jorgensen 38,415
            Brian Carroll 5,253
            Don Blankenship 5,206

            That’s a total of 3,289,474 votes out of a voting age population of 4,536,417, or 72,5% voter turnout.

            You can find statistics on historic election day registrations that I summarized here:

          4. Going by votes cast and voters registered by 1st Nov, 10.7% of those casting a ballot in Wisconsin opted for election day registration this year, which corresponds to 8.7% of the voting age population.

          5. Sorry I’m on my phone now the power is out…but if I’m reading right what was the point of mentioning registration at all? Election Day or otherwise the number would be the same.

          6. ” what was the point of mentioning registration at all?”

            Yours and Mel’s obvious confusion on how to calculate voter turnout properly. Mel going so far as to caculate it as (votes cast) / (voters – voters registering on election day).

          7. @marmoewp

            One of the reasons we don’t allow same day registration is to verify people have the right to register. It is a stupid idea, and this confusion illustrates the issue. People were reporting the turnout based upon WI’s own numbers. What other number were they suppose to use?

            This sort of stupidity is why I have have not flatly stated Democrats stole the election. What I will state without qualification is that Democrats have deliberately made a reckless mess of the rules, and they began the process of undermining confidence in the system with all there idiotic charges against Trump.

            It is actually far more reasonable to believe Democrats stole the election than it is to believe the Russians help Trump win in 2016.

            How will all this work out? Don’t know. My hope is that Republicans will focus on the fact that Democrats set out to undermine the integrity of the election system. The result is that we cannot trust the results.

          8. @Tom
            It is one thing to be confused and then to investigate an issue before drawing definite conclusions, it is quite another to go straight to shouting “FRAUD!!!!!!1111!!!!”. But hey, getting things wrong is always the fault of others, of course.

          9. @marmoewp

            Really? Where does that rate with calling someone a traitor (colluding with the Russians), a racist, polluter, clown, economy wrecker, and so forth?

            Fact! Democrats have a pattern have removing the safeguards that would prevent election fraud. When they don’t allow observers and they blatantly disregard election law, it needs to be investigated.

          10. @marmoewp

            I suppose I should add that I have not gone straight to shouting election fraud. I have called for an investigation. So, your accusation has you doing what you just condemned.

          11. @Tom
            Just a heads-up.

            How did Democrats manage to mess up voting rules over the last decade? Two years of having the Governor’s office is enough? Wow, that’s deadly efficient.

          12. @marmoewp

            When we had the episode with Gore and Bush, Jeb Bush was governor of Florida. That did not stop Democrats in several counties they ran from trying to count the vote until Gore won.

          13. Interesting breakdown of the Wisconsin vote by county:
            “How a handful of counties turned out en masse, winning Wisconsin for Joe Biden”

            Biden’s margin increased most in Sauk County, which flipped blue for the former Vice President. Door County, the other county to flip in this election, saw an eight point swing from 2016.
            Additionally, both Sauk and Door counties — the two counties that flipped in this election — saw large increases in voter turnout, and both turned Democratic.

          14. @Liz

            When I was working the polls, I saw plenty of young, first time, freshly indoctrinated by the public schools voters. Anecdotal, so I don’t know what to make of it, but this could be the first time Democrats have truly succeeded in turning out the gullible youth vote.

      2. @marmoewp

        When they first reported the results, they reported more votes than registered voters. Then they updated the numbers.

        Please note that Facebook is censoring the articles your article is pointing to. Not Facebook’s job.

        1. “When they first reported the results, they reported more votes than registered voters. Then they updated the numbers.”
          Who is “they”? Election officials? Media (which ones)? Someone else? Are you sure there was no “registered as of 1st Nov” attached?

          Anyway, I consider being aware of the existance of election day registration a basic skill, if you want to check voting results. Just as the humility to ask yourself: “Hmm, this looks odd. Could it be I am wrong or missing something?”

          1. As expected, still the same nonsense: outrage factor = total votes cast divided by voters registered before election day, completely ignoring election day registration. The same fundamental flaw is still there despite the “update”. All of this incompetent reporting in one of the conservative, “pseudo-local” news websites by Metric Media Foundation / Brian Timpone, ready to be picked up by the outrage machine.

          2. @marmoewp

            You are ignoring who is really responsible for the confusion.

            The so-called mainstream news media is so one-sided the cannot be trusted. Big Tech is censoring instead of letting people figuring out who can be trusted. Democrats are ignoring the law and tradition, doing what they please and making critical changes on the fly.

            Since Democrats have make it obvious they will anything they can get away with to win, it would be stupid to assume they have not cheated. Ignoring Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution is cheating, and we know they have done that in multiple ways.

            They hid what the were doing from poll watchers. What?

      3. @marmoewp

        This is why I don’t pay any attention to the MSM’s “fact-checks.” 🙂

        “In five city wards, the number of votes increased between 31 and 44 percent. In one ward, more than 105 percent of the eligible voting population cast ballots, based on demographic data from 2010—the most recent the city makes available. Another four wards had turnout over 92 percent.”

  2. We already know that the Trump campaign and then presidency was spied on starting in 2016, via information gleaned from paid foreign operatives to obtain a warrant for a person who was a known and trusted CIA asset. Although they found nothing, they used this warrant to spy on and remove Flynn, and a number of other people via perjury traps. Then charge Trump with “obstruction of Congress”.
    This all sounds like a conspiracy theory but we now know it is absolutely true.
    It happened. Very recently too.
    What’s harder…the above, or election fraud?
    I’d say election fraud is 1000 times easier in this environment when localities are making up the rules and they’re experimenting with new voting techniques.

    1. But just keep laughing TSalmon.
      People have to have confidence that the election process is legitimate, or it casts doubt on the outcome. The way this election has been handled casts extreme doubt on the outcome.

    2. “We already know that the Trump campaign and then presidency was spied on starting in 2016, via information gleaned from paid foreign operatives to obtain a warrant for a person who was a known and trusted CIA asset.”

      WE don’t “know” any of that Liz. In fact, the FBI IG found just the opposite, and so did the REPUBLICAN Senate Intel Committee. It is a a made up conspiracy theory.

      And no, I’m not laughing at you. I find this grasping at conspiracy theories in the face of what is rapidly becoming a clear and decisive victory by Biden rather sad and disturbing. If you do not have confidence in the electoral system, then it is because Trump is simply fablicatung institutional distrust like he lies about literally everything.

      I am obviously getting ready to celebrate though . . . just as you naturally would if Trump won.

      You guys need to calm down and just get a grip. I wasn’t happy about Trump winning in 2016, but, despite the close call, I never questioned our basic institutions of democracy and sought to say Trump didn’t actually win – the Russians helped Trump but he undeniably did win. I think that’s true of the feelings of most Democrats as well. Instead of whining, Democrats went about figuring out how THEY failed in the 2016 debacle that elected a White Nationalist Populist, and they apparently corrected that and created enough enthusiasm to get out an enormous vote, as did Trump Republicans BTW. We all have reason to be proud. Regardless of who would have won, I think democracy won in the end.

      Go cry in you beers for a while and then set about figuring out how to be a loyal opposition again rather than trying to tear down our country.

      1. WE don’t “know” any of that Liz. In fact, the FBI IG found just the opposite, and so did the REPUBLICAN Senate Intel Committee. It is a a made up conspiracy theory.

        What in the name of….what are you talking about?!?
        Are you truly asserting Trump’s campaign and presidency hasn’t been spied on?
        What portion are you suggesting is not in evidence?

        1. We have the FISA warrants, we have the FISA warrant applications. We have the e mail from the CIA explaining that Carter Page worked for the CIA and the pleading letter from Carter Page to Comey (who ignored it). We have an FBI lawyer who has been indicted for doctoring it.
          What is missing? I really want to know.

          1. I guess it’s kind of like the “Hitler” and white supremacist garbage eh?
            Just say it and it’s true! Say it enough and it invalidates all evidence to the contrary.

          2. Liz,

            You need to get the WHOLE story. The FBI was investigating a guy who was already connected to another Russian spy investigation where Russians were indicted and one Russian went to jail so it is is not surprising that they were investigating him as a possible Russian agent.

            As it turns out, the left hand did not know what the right hand was doing – the target was apparently a CIA asset working AGAINST Russian interference. This apparent CIA asset (as Tom knows, they never admit such things publicly) was the member of the Trump campaign that was supposedly being spied upon. The FISA warrant was therefore a mistake, but as the FBI said, it was NOT politically motivated (nor is there any evidence that Obama/Biden directed any of this), but instead simply overly aggressive investigators going after what appeared to be a likely target who they did not know was acting as a double agent. They blew his cover – that’s all.

            Giant conspiracy? Hardly. There simply is no grand conspiracy facts that Obama/Biden to personally spied on Trump. This was just the FBI basically doing its job trying to stop an adversary who everyone on both sides (except our conspiracy theorist in chief) acknowledges was substantial Russian interference in our 2016 election, including some coordination (can you say Wikileaks and Roger Stone?) with the Trump Campaign.

            That’s just the facts, but ya, wild conspiracies are always fun too.

          3. Tom,

            Bullshit indeed! I’m not defending the FISA process – a closed and secret court like this is bound to be abused, especially by law enforcement and prosecutors.

            The question is whether it was abused for political reasons, or did they just get caught doing the same sort of prosecutorial overreach that they do on terrorist suspects, but it is never really scrutinized. The answer to that is that NO POLITICAL MOTIVATION WAS FOUND.

          4. @tsalmon

            Bullshit! No one is claiming to read minds. However, there is thing called the Mueller investigation that dragged on and on, and the same people were involved.

          5. Tom,

            Mueller was a Republican appointed by a Republican who was appointed by Trump. In fact, based simply on their public service to this country and past resumes, Trump is the least credible person in virtually any of your weird scenarios.

            Stop and think about it brother. A little skepticism is healthy, but at some point, how paranoid is this place where you live these days?

          6. @tsalmon

            Labels! You cannot get pass the labels. It is what people do that matters. Without any evidence, Mueller allowed an investigation that never should have been started to drag on. Meanwhile, if anyone asks why you voted for Harris/Biden, all you have are empty condemnations of others.

          7. The lawyer who plead guilty to the criminal charge of falsifying evidence (and has subsequently been indicted) was the lawyer who worked on the Mueller probe.

          8. Labels? You voted for a guy whose only qualification was as a Reality TV Star because he leads your label, didn’t you?

            You said you originally voted for Trump because of your “condemnations” of Hillary Clinton. That was about it. You really never even liked Trump.

            Anyway, like a landslide of other Americans, I voted for the apparent next President of the United States, Joe Biden, because he is basically a decent, honest guy and his opponent is indecent and mendacious to an historic extreme.

          9. @tsalmon

            I said I had a choice between Donald Trump and H. Clinton. I took the time to investigate BOTH of them. Clinton was running around accusing Trump of doing what she actually did.

            Trump’s lack of a political record bothered me, but he said the right things, and he has delivered. I am happy with him. You are not. So, you believe empty accusations.

            Trump TV career was not a plus. The only time I watch TV is at the gym, and that’s because the screens sit in front of the exercise machines. Listen to my the radio on my phone. You are the one feeding at the boob tube, not me.

            Biden is a liar and probably a criminal who solicited and accepted bribes. We have been over and over this. I don’t enjoy pointing out what a stinker that man is. The main thing is the man has been in office for well over four decades, and he has caused more harm than good. So, instead of running on his record, he hid in his basement and let the news media attack Trump. That is all you do.

          10. I didn’t like Trump at the beginning. I waited and watched for results. With the results I became a Trump supporter. I like not having new wars. I like the fact that peace seems to be starting to happen for the middle east. I like it that ISIS lost all its claimed territory and is no longer one of our top concerns. I like it that we don’t have a no fly zone over Syria now, playing chicken with Russia for no reason. I like it that we are decoupling from China. I like it that the DPRK isn’t one of our top concerns. I like it that just about everything Trump sad he would do he either did or the evidence would indicate he made an honest effort to try to do.
            He is still not a good speaker or statesman.
            But as far as results go, he did very well.
            For some reason (you’ve done this many times) you seem to believe that if one doesn’t really like a candidate at the beginning one has to keep this opinion (you’ve mentioned Republicans who have changed their opinion).
            I’m not sure why that is. But regardless, I really cannot understand how you could be reading Citizen Tom’s site for all these years and still have the impassion he “never really liked Trump”.

          11. Because the academically challenged Rush Limbaugh says things on the radio don’t make it so. Your perpetuating Russian disinformation given to Rudy. It’s just more conspiracy theories bro.

      2. Go cry in you beers for a while and then set about figuring out how to be a loyal opposition again rather than trying to tear down our country.

        For four years I’ve been called a de facto white supremacist Nazi. Now I need to get a grip and figure out how to be a “loyal opposition”?
        Liberals have torn this nation up. And blamed it on everyone else.
        And I don’t think they’re going to stop.
        You’re doing it right now, claiming the entire surveillance fiasco that has been well proven is a “conspiracy theory”.
        That the new party line now?

        1. @tsalmon

          One of the reasons that Democrats have to win the White House is that they have to squelch the investigation. To squelch the investigation the news media has to claim that there is nothing there.

      3. @tsalmon

        No. Everything is not black and white to you, just Democrat and Republican, or Trump is evil and everything untainted by him is good.

        The fact is that the CIA and the FBI spied upon Trump’s campaign, and that fact has been established everywhere except in the news media you read.

        1. Tom, Brother-O-Mine,

          Things are black and white to me? And yet you are being so tribal here that you have totally fallen for a failed casino operator, beauty queen contest running, fake university promoting, charity robbing, tax cheating, pathologically lying Unreality TV Star and known flimflam man, and he’s just great and can do no wrong as long as he PRETENDS to be a Republican. The Orange Faced, Combover Con Artist is your guy and yet everybody, everywhere else is committing fraud? The projection of your own shadows is so thick here that it is obvious. You gave burrowed deep into your own tiny reality.

          Oh well. Sadly, you are not alone. Why would anyone, including Trump, want this impossible job?

          1. @tsalmon

            Your preferred candidate promotes identity politics — including racist/Marxist outfits like Black Lives Matters, and you still have the gall to accuse someone else of tribalism? Just because the name of an organization sound good, you adopt their cause? Not me!

            I had a choice between between a guy who keeps his promises and a guy who takes bribes. I had a choice between a guy who is unafraid of hostile news media and a schemer who hides in his basement. I had a choice between news media sources who admit their biases and those who don’t. I had a choice between those who report honestly even if that POs Big Tech and news media sources so biased they cover up news that conflicts with their preferred narrative. So, I made my choice, and I don’t have to make you like it.

            You belong to a “tribe” that JUDGES people by their appearances and politically correct verbiage. Not smart and definitely unwise. Meanwhile, you pat yourself on the back for winning, but your loss is greater than mine. If you gain the world, but lose your soul what good is it?

          2. Big Brother,

            So now you’re judging MY soul? Thanks but no thanks. I am undoubtedly a sinner, but you are simply not qualified to take my savior’s job.

            Everything else you said about Trump is simply laughable, and about Biden is simply made up. Trump keeps promises? How many Infrastructure Weeks did we have? Where is the repealment and more importantly, the “wonderful, beautifulest” replacement of Obamacare, the plan for which is always coming next week? And COVID’s end has been “just around the corner” for for so long that we have spun in so many circles we a dizzy and dying from it.

            The whole Red Scare thing about BLM isn’t even sooo 1950’s, it’s 1890’s. You can’t live forever in a nostalgia for White Nationalism – the world is moving on with you or without you. If they are to be relevant, Republicans will need to up their game at least past the 19th Century. 😏

          3. @tsalmon

            Judging you? How typical If somebody tells a bank robber it is wrong to rob banks, I suppose you think that is judging him. In fact, the people you vote for are on the verge of promoting such nonsense. Don’t they run around calling everyone who disagrees with them a racist? Is not racism suppose to be a prejudgment? Meanwhile, Liberal Democrats have no trouble harboring anti-Semites among their ranks. Hypocrites!

            Everything else you said about Trump is simply laughable, and about Biden is simply made up.

            I live in Northern Virginia. You use to live in Washington state. You know what the news media does. You know what Democrats do. You know it is not made up. You just refuse to deal with it. That’s why, instead of defending your choices, you immediately attack or ridicule in response to any comment related to what you believe. You cannot defend what you believe. You can only attack, and your attacks make you feel better about your own sins because no one is perfect. You can find fault. That is your judgement, not mine.

            Trump’s imperfections don’t excuse voting for Democrats. What that party stands for is an abomination, and you know it. We know you know it because you don’t defend their platform. You attack Trump. You ridicule.

            Biden is crooked. If you don’t know that, it is because you don’t care to know. You attack Trump.

          4. All you have to back up your conspiracy theory claims on Biden is tabloid journalism fomented by Russia. And yet the rest of the world of journalism wrong. Right . . . . Even Bill Bar wouldn’t promote this nonsense as an October surprise despite the Orange Liar Clown publicly begging him to do so. And you accuse me of just making accusations? Literally, all you have is Red herrings, tabloid facts and talk radio political propaganda. 🙄

          5. @tsalmon

            And yes, last night I heard about the Supreme Court taking an interest in the election shenanigans in Philadelphia. If that is what you are talking about it is your nightmare, not my dreams.

          6. Just a little levity my good brother.

            And once again, just one of the things that I appreciate about you is that you humor the disagreement. In the end, we may only agree to disagreed, but you allow that disagreement to be fully aired. That’s admirable in and of itself.

          7. You’ve lost me Tom. Are you talking about Alito ordering in PA the segregation of mail-in ballots that are post marked before Nov. 3 or before arrived after a three day dead line?

            1. They were already being segregated.
            2. Biden is already winning in PA and these ballots are only expected to increase that win.
            3. PA is unlikely going to a recount, but recounts rarely change an outcome by more than a few hundred votes which are just as likely to swing for Biden as for Trump. Thus these ballots are unlikely to matter either way.
            4. Why is it that you want to disenfranchise these voters?

            Of almost a dozen challenges to Courts by Republicans so far, all have been pretty much thrown out. If your big hope is Alito telling officials to do what they are doing, you may need to adjust your wishes higher than 🦄 , 🧚‍♀️, 🍀 and 🌈 . 😎

          8. @tsalmon

            Standard Democrat talking points. If votes are thrown out, the votes will be thrown out because of illegalities. Nevertheless, that does not stop you from framing the issue so that Democrats are pure and good and Republicans are vote stealers.

            Hypocritical posturing. Kind like Biden calling for unity and an end to all the accusations. He won fair and square campaigning from his basement. Now all the strife can stop?😇

          9. “Standard Democrat talking points. If votes are thrown out, the votes will be thrown out because of illegalities.”


            Wouldn’t know -I’m not a registered Democrat and unlike you I’m not a Party advocate or volunteer.

            If these votes are thrown out (which according to the PA Supreme Court, they may not be) it will be because of a combination of a purposely slowed postal system and a technicality. The result will simply be to disenfranchise voters who cast their votes in good faith on or before Election Day. As a matter of principle, I’m not just “casting” it as wrong, it simply is wrong.

            BTW CNN just projected Biden the winner!!!!

          10. @tsalmon

            The Post Office, operated unions that endorsed Biden stole the election? It is funny how we are supposed to take any conspiracy with Trump involved seriously, but crazy Democrats, including you, are just Angels.

          11. All you have to back up your conspiracy theory claims on Biden is tabloid journalism fomented by Russia.

            Them Russians sure are more sophisticated now than they were in 2016 with the Facebook memes. Time dated e mails, videos, testimony from three witnesses.
            Even Biden’s own attorneys were fooled.

            Hey….even the Chinese were fooled!
            Did you see how their currency tanked when Trump was projected to win?
            Notice how their currency went back up when it switched to Biden?

  3. Historically, States that got cheating had their Electoral Votes annulled (See the Election of 1876). Minus California, Washington, Oregon, Arizona, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, New Mexico,—and probably Hawaii, Maine, NH, NJ and a few others, the DNC’s fraudsters would get wiped out.

    1. @The Night Wind

      If we eliminated the states who pretend voter fraud doesn’t exist, that would eliminate a lot of Democrat-run states. What a mess! God help us! On our own we cannot fix our country.

      1. I don’t know if you this story (the MSM doesn’t think it important), but the very day of the Election, the Supreme Court of California ruled that the Electoral process in that state was unconstitutional.


        How does a State like California end up with a 70-30 split for Biden? There’s like 15 million registered voters here. States with similar populations and demographics like Texas and Florida had 3-4% wins. True, Biden might have carried California anyway, but the fraud and the inequalities in the voting laws going on in the Pacific States is to the point where Conservative votes are irrelevant.

        1. @The Night Wind

          Liberal Democrats don’t examine these issues. They examine what is wrong with us. We don’t agree with their brilliance? Their excellent desire to rule us for our own good? Then there must be something wrong with us.

        2. The LA Times reported on this on 2 Nov. Whatever the failings of Governor Newsom, the legislative passed AB-860 back in June, which also ordered ballot to be mailed out with support of half of the Republican representatives. And since voter registration shows that about half of the voters register as Democrats, a quarter as Republicans and the rest mostly as unaffiliated, the wide split in the election result is to be expected.

          1. California, much like Colorado, wasn’t going to go for Trump.
            Whether fraud or no.
            There are a lot of other cases in more key states to look at.
            And for the neer neer folks who overlook what is in front of them.
            Typically fraud isn’t exposed with concrete, court verified evidence and details right as the fraud is happening. We’re all seeing the videos, statistics, suspicious circumstances right now. How exactly this impacted the election….we are not going to know that today.

          2. @marmoewp

            Just because a politician calls himself a Republican does not mean much.

            Consider. A politician maximizes his influence by spreading money around in his district. Since taxpayers don’t like being taxed, taxpayers don’t like politicians who spend lots of money just to gain influence. How do politicians get around taxpayers. They buy votes by redistributing the wealth. Both Liberal Democrats and Liberal Democrats do this, and it is corrupt.

          3. @Liz
            What I am seeing is that Democrats voted way more than Republicans by mail. Mail ballots take time to count, so over time, as mail votes are added, Trump leads melted and were reversed. All I am hearing from Republicans is: Mail votes differ from on-site votes, so it must be fraud, fraud, fraud! The Night Wind is a case in point. Do not look at the circumstances, do not question your own preconceptions, if the result does not match your expectations it must be fraud, fraud, fraud! And the Trump clan is pouring gasoline onto this dumpster fire by the truck load.

            What I have seen are mistakes that are bound to happen in a big election like this.

            The 118 year old, presumably dead guy, who was successfully registered and whose ballot was received. I do not know, whether or not that means that vote was counted. But yes, that one warrents scrutiny.

            The computer glitch / human error, where thousands of Trump votes were counted for Biden. It was caught by the election crew, as they do consistency checks to catch mistakes like these, and corrected.

            I do not think, that you country is doing itself a favor using voting machines and ballot scanners. Apart from malfunctions, you have to trust closed source software to do the counting correctly, without leaving an auditable paper trail. As for voter registration and verification, that’s the price you pay for not having a working, up-to-date registry of your people on purpose.

          4. Maybe that reluctance has something to do with some states overdoing the cleaning up?

            Over the course of just six years Georgia managed to purge 1.4 million voters of its voter rolls, out of a total population of less than 10 million people. That is every year one in 40 people (kids and babies included) got kicked off the rolls. Death accounts only for one in six of those kicked off, what about the other 5?

            Ohio in 2019 had it’s purge lists ready to go. Then they did an experiment and checked the list. One in six voters slated for removal got onto that list due to computer errors or clerks adding the wrong person.

            And then there are attempts like North Carolina Republican’s voter ID legislation, that was crafted with access to detailed information on ID possession and voting patterns by race, and ended up targeting blacks with almost surgical precission, as the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals determined, striking down the bill.

            And you wonder, why Democrats act the way they do?

          5. @marmoewp
            Do I wonder why Democrats act the way they do? No. Republicans are racists. Every problem there is is explained by calling Republicans racists.

          6. All I am hearing from Republicans is: Mail votes differ from on-site votes, so it must be fraud, fraud, fraud!

            There’s more than that.
            I’m not a tech geek, but apparently Benford’s Law is often employed to screen for potential voter fraud (examples Iran and Russia). Anomalies have been found:

            Once anomalies are found the next step is to find out why. We probably aren’t going to know the explanation immediately but smart people are working on it I’m sure.

            Since you seem to reject all examples that have been given I won’t list them again, though I have to ask out of curiosity….If there were fraud, what do you think it would look like?

          7. @Liz

            Kind of an obscure approach for most people. Frankly, even though I have taken several courses in statistics, that was a long time ago, and I am not familiar with Benford’s Law. Going to have to study that one to make sense of what it does.

            My guess is that these studies will be used to justify finding the underlying anomaly. In and of themselves the studies don’t provide convincing evidence.

          8. Here is a helpful article from the BBC:

            “Too many voters”- Check
            “A high turnout in specific areas”- Check
            “Large numbers of invalid votes”-
            “More votes than ballot papers issued”
            “Results that don’t match”
            Those three above are being checked out right now.
            “Delay in announcing results”-Definitely check in some areas….weird delays when it looked obviously for Trump and then switched at the very last. Example Georgia where Biden just took it by 0.1 percent.

          9. @Liz

            Scary how it changed, but we were warned that that was to be expected. Yeah, it makes perfect sense to count the votes we receive first last.

          10. @Liz
            For Benford’s Law to hold, one vital requirement is that the numbers must span many orders of magnitude, say from 10 to 10 million. I had a look at the Miami Dale data. The voter data analysed on that site go from a couple of hundred to a couple of thousand votes, with a few outlier precints having 20 or so voters. The vote distribution is simply too narrow to meet that many orders of magnitude criterion. Hence Benford’s Law is not applicable.

          11. It’s too esoteric for me, but assuming the above is true…
            how can they employ it as a screen for voter fraud elsewhere?
            Do Iran, Russia et al have numbers that “span vast orders of magnitude” compared to us?

          12. @Liz
            “This is what it looked like when I went to bed election night.”
            Yes, that was the count dominated by in-person voters, which predominantly are Republican. Then they added by-and-by the count of the mail-in ballots, dominated by Democrats. That was predictable.

          13. If you say so, marmoewp. Seems a little odd to me with most of the mail in ballots in hand already they would start counting the ones they had first, rather than waiting until all in person votes came in and then start counting.

          14. @marmoewp

            Not much of an excuse. Democrat governors did not have any trouble waiving signature requirements, witness requirements, receiving when the ballots were received and so forth.

          15. @Liz

            It’s too esoteric for me, but assuming the above is true…
            how can they employ it as a screen for voter fraud elsewhere?
            Do Iran, Russia et al have numbers that “span vast orders of magnitude” compared to us?

            No, but it is not clear, whether Benford’s law works there as proof of fraud, either, or at all.
            There is an often cited, possibly controversial, research paper from 2011, arguing that trying to tell a fraudulent vote from a good one using Bedford’s law has the same chance of being correct as flipping a coin. If I find the time, I will look into this a bit more and give you a heads-up elsewhere. Unfortunately, it’s a big “if”, sorry.


          16. @marmoewp

            Statistical studies, like modelling global warming, have their limits. The problem with something like Benford’s Law is that we have to demonstrate it works with real world data, which is not entirely random even when no corruption is involved.

  4. Say what do you want to bet that if Trump pulls ahead in Arizona, only then will he want to stop counting votes?

    1. @tsalmon

      Doesn’t the source of the ballots have something to do with Trump’s desire to stop counting? Doesn’t the absence of monitoring by Republicans have something to do with the desire to stop counting? Naw! Orange man bad!

      You sound like a child who stole something from his playmate and refuses to give it back.

      1. You sound like a child who is losing the game fair and square and now wants to take his ball and go home. 😊

        1. @tsalmon

          If it was fair and square, open and above board, then you won’t mind an investigation? Kind of like the investigation of Trump’s supposed collusion with the Russians?

          1. Investigate what?

            I think people who illegally voted should and will be prosecuted. However, you need something more than literal urban legend and isolated incidents. You need probable cause for a massive conspiracy big enough to overturn a national election where it appears that Biden will win extra Red, Blue and Purple states handily win the electoral college.

      2. “Doesn’t the absence of monitoring by Republicans have something to do with the desire to stop counting?“

        This is just a made up myth. Credentialed Republican representatives are involved and sitting side by side with their Democratic counterparts challenging ballots. Many counting places even have 24/7 cameras where everyone can watch via internet.

        Four years ago the majority of Americans voted for Hillary Clinton, but Trump ran an inside straight by eking out an electoral college victory of less than 80,000 votes in three states. This time, in the midst of a Pandemic, it looks like more Americans voted for Joe Biden than any candidate in the history of the country. Because of the Pandemic, a good many of those Biden voters naturally took COVID seriously and legally voted by mail. (Trump encouraged just voters to ignore their own safety and vote same day). This massive number of votes is simply taking a little longer to count and thus Biden mail in voters are overtaking Trump same day voters. No conspiracy, it’s just that obvious and simple.

        The result so far appears to show a rejection of Trump and Trumpism in the Blue Wall Midwestern States where Trump won before, but also significant Trump disillusionment in the normal Republican bastions of the South and Southwest.

        We sadly remain a deeply divided nation even though we share far more in common than we have real differences. When I look past all of the Trump cult of personality nationalist populism in many of my neighbors, I just mostly just see myself.

        1. This is just a made up myth. Credentialed Republican representatives are involved and sitting side by side with their Democratic counterparts challenging ballots. Many counting places even have 24/7 cameras where everyone can watch via internet.

          It’s nice that “many counting places” have that feature. I guess since “many” do that fact that “many”…perhaps most, don’t is an irrelevancy.
          If this is a myth as you claim, why did Republicans have to go to court in Philadelphia for monitors to get within 6 feet of the poll counters?

          States make the laws for their election process. If there is fraud (what are the odds Mike is flying with the only man in Arizona whose kid received two ballots in the mail) the states should have a re-vote. This was a terrible election to experiment with new voting techniques, but we already knew that. By the look of things that was the plan.

          1. Side note: “The personal is political” maxim might be one of the most catastrophic, fatal errors in public thought ever in American history.

          2. “If there is fraud (what are the odds Mike is flying with the only man in Arizona whose kid received two ballots in the mail) the states should have a re-vote.”


            It’s not illegal to get two ballots. It’s illegal, and virtually impossible, to vote both of them. As soon as two ballots show up under one person’s registration, the system rejects one (and probably both) of them. The voting system has never required, and never had perfection in registration rolls, and such imperfection in the registration rolls is NOT voter fraud.

            Furthermore, no system could ever perfectly prevent a few isolated incidents of actual voter fraud. However is simply NO evidense of fraud large enough to have any determinative effect on a national vote, and certainly not in this case where it is beginning to look like an overwhelming Biden victory.

          3. @tsalmon

            Voter registration rolls, especially in states run by Democrats, are notorious for being poorly maintained. In fact, Democrats fight any effort to remove folks from the lists. Then they send out ballots to everyone on the list. If you cannot see the problem with that, you don’t care to do so.

          4. However is simply NO evidence of fraud large enough to have any determinative effect on a national vote, and certainly not in this case where it is beginning to look like an overwhelming Biden victory.

            This is premature. There is a lot of evidence of vast fraud right in front of our eyes. Nothing has been proven in court.
            There are about 100 lawyers looking into it right now.

          5. I have to hand it to the Democrats though. Using “safety concerns” and novel voting techniques is a lot more elegant than spying on a campaign and blaming the result on Russian facebook memes.

          6. “It’s nice that ‘many counting places’ have that feature. I guess since ‘many’ do that fact that ‘many’, perhaps most, don’t is an irrelevancy.
            If this is a myth as you claim, why did Republicans have to go to court in Philadelphia for monitors to get within 6 feet of the poll counters?“

            All the Democratic strongholds where you are aledging conspiracy theories have it because that’s where REPUBLICANS have requested observers. Besides now you are changing the fake narrative from NO Republican observers to simply being surprised that DURING A PANDEMIC in the places where Republican want observers there is a need for safe distancing. Once the daylight of factual information is applied, all the conspiracy theories just evaporate.😏

            I guess if Trump overtakes Biden in Arizona, it can only mean that Republican snowbirds illegally voted by mail in two places, right? It’s a giant Republican conspiracy! 😂

          7. @tsalmon

            Ridicule is all you have got.

            Why isn’t H. Clinton in jail. Why was she your candidate after being caught with a classified computer in her basement? Why did the FBI protect her and COVER UP for her instead of prosecuting?

            It is a fact that Joe Biden’s son has accepted millions from shady Russian, Ukrainian, and Chinese sources. It is a fact his father knew about it. It is a fact the news media and Big Tech have buried the story. Conspiracy? You got another name for it?

          8. You should realize that is laughable, but I suppose you don’t. Our news media thinks voter fraud does not exist. The elites — The Establishment — think voter fraud does not exist. Caesar Augustus did not think voter fraud existed either. And slave masters thought they were doing blacks a big favor by making slaves of them.

          9. “This is premature. There is a lot of evidence of vast fraud right in front of our eyes. Nothing has been proven in court.
            There are about 100 lawyers looking into it right now.“


            While, as a lawyer, I appreciate that “100 lawyers” doing anything means anything there is so far no evidence of actual voter fraud significant enough to justify court review.

            A long time ago, I practiced some election law, and I can tell you that threshold question to get into court, especially before the elections results are even called and certified, is whether the plaintiffs can show (1) standing and (2) significant enough ongoing fraud to actually change the results of the election.

            Even if, after the results are certified, it is close enough to justify a recount, we’ll see, but assuming PA continues coming in as it is, that’s all Biden needs whereas Trump will need to overturn the results of several states.

            Just so you know, Trump’s lawyers’ (mostly a B team at best) blustering is more political than legal.

        2. @tsalmon

          Liberal Democrats have been screaming about massive conspiracies for years. Why Republicans point to obvious problems, Liberal Democrats call us conspiracy theorists, and they try to silence us, even President Trump.

          It is not a conspiracy. It is factional politics, and it is real.

          1. Tom,

            I’ve often been to the Arctic Circle not that long ago. The warming is making things there pretty bad too. Buildings and houses are sinking into the normally permanent permafrost. The arctic air conditioning systems for the whole planet are breaking down.

            It’s just science Tom. But look at the bright side brother – you may be able to will waterfront property to your grandkids. 😄

          2. @tsalmon

            According to you, your house will be under water. If the problem is real, Biden does not have a solution. Other than buying more Chinese-made wind mills and solar panels and sending more jobs overseas, he has not got a plan. I just hope my children and grandchildren won’t lose their country — and lives — because of the greed of people like him.

          3. Hey, I’ve got solar panels. They work great and more than pay for themselves on average each month. They would actually make money, but Mississippi power is a cartel. Getting them was kind of a no brainer really.

            Did you you know that by far there are more jobs in America in solar than in oil? Another no brainer as far as which which to promote.

            I’m about a block from the beach, but 32 feet above sea level. So yep, if I live long enough, I may have water front property, but my grandkids may only have their very own swimming platform.

          4. No doubt the tax write off helps. Phony economics! When government picks winners and losers, that is a sign of corruption, not success. Government subsidies for wind mills and solar make no sense, and government subsidies for Big Oil are dumb too.

  5. My spouse is flying with someone from Arizona today who told him his daughter (who is 17 and never registered) received two mail in ballots. About 30,000 ballots were found in a drainage ditch also. Apparently it’s a mess there. Worse than I imagined.

      1. @tsalmon

        Some of them are, no doubt. Nevertheless, Democrats do have a reputation for making it easy to steal elections and then “counting” ballots until they win.

        Anyway, it is not my job to make you believe anything. I don’t consider it a personal failure if you deride what I have said. However, here is something for you to consider. If it amuses you to make fun of me that way, what does that say about you? All you did was say you don’t agree. So what? Who the Hell are you? The king of empty arguments? A rifleman with a magazine full of duds?

        If you want to call Trump evil and then ignore the failings of Democrats, what am I supposed to do about it? If you want to call yourself a Christian and then ignore the fact that we have to make it difficult for people to commit election fraud because fallen men will almost certainly cheat, what am I suppose to do about that that I have not already done?

        Think! Think of the fact you despise Trump. Do you actually think Republicans have a monopoly on vile behavior? None of us are good. Not one.

        Why does The Establishment oppose Trump? He threatens their lock on power, their access to huge sums of money and valuable perks. If I cannot make you see that, am I a failure? No, but if it is true, you have a problem.

          1. @tsalmon

            After the last four years? You have the gall to complain about unfounded conspiracy theories.

            Please observed I asked for a thorough investigation. I did not demand an impeachment based upon nothing.

          2. Don’t blame you for wanting to relitigate the last four years rather than face facts right now. I’ll just point out that Trump was impeached. He was tried in the Senate where evidence and witnesses as to his guilt or innocence were not allowed by the Republicans. Trump therefore survived dismissal from office although all the Democrats and one Republican voted for it.

          3. @tsalmon

            Trump has never been popular with most of the Republican establishment. He has succeeded in doing what they refused to do. Think about the fact that the Senate let Obama have that idiotic treaty with Iran. They wrote a twisted piece of legislation to do it, effectively an end run around the treaty clause.

            There was no evidence that Trump was guilty of anything, and everyone knew it. You too.

        1. Tom,

          BTW, as I have said many times before, I don’t “despise” Trump anymore than it means that I despise the thief who robs the innocent simply by pointing out the truth that he is a thief. Trump lies. He is a liar.

          “If it amuses you to make fun of me that way, what does that say about you?“

          How am I making fun of you? In response to Liz’s comment, I was simply pointing out that Arizona has a Republican Governor (and so does GA) who is ultimately responsible for the election laws and for enforcing those laws in his own state. If you feel that that simple truth belittles you, then that says more about you than me, don’t you think?

          I have no animosity towards Trump – I love Trump as one of God’s children. And I love you very much more brother. You should not confuse simple disagreement with animosity. I am not your enemy and you are certainly not mine.

          1. @tsalmon

            I have no animosity towards Trump – I love Trump as one of God’s children.

            Yeah! Sure! And that is why you voted for Harris/Biden?

            Frankly, I have no problem saying Liberal Democrats anger me. It is what it is. I feel what I feel, and it does no good to pretend I don’t feel it. My job is to deal with it by asking for our Lord’s help to overcome the weakness of my flesh. I have to remember that without the grace of God I too would not respect the God-given rights of my neighbors.

            How am I making fun of you? In response to Liz’s comment, I was simply pointing out that Arizona has a Republican Governor (and so does GA) who is ultimately responsible for the election laws and for enforcing those laws in his own state.

            You made fun of Liz. Why shouldn’t I take it personally?

            Florida had a Republican governor — Jeb Bush — and a Republican Legislature, but that did not stop Democrat-run counties from counting and counting and counting. Stopping them counting until they “won” took court action.

            Because they fear a hostile news media, most Republicans hide behind the skirts of judges. People tend to be gutless. The news media is no different, but reporters do revel in their power.

            Anyway there are dishonest people everywhere, and lots of them are Liberal Democrats. That includes post offices and in county governments in every state. So, there is no reason to believe 30,000 ballots could not be found dumped in a drainage ditch in any state. When the Post Office was never intended for such a thing, mishandled ballots are just an inevitable consequence of mail-in balloting.

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