The structure of part of a DNA double helix (from here (en.wikipedia.org))
What is the subject of this post? This podcast, The Biology Of Sex (npr.org). Listen Again: The Biology Of Sex is a show from the TED Radio Hour that focuses on genetic studies with respect to gender. The agenda, apparently, is to demonstrate how biological sex exists on a spectrum, that there is no simple binary separation between men and women. In other words, no one is a straightforward man or woman. Instead, based upon our genes we exhibit male and female traits on a spectrum. Therefore, the place each of us supposedly occupies in this spectrum determines our gender.
Even when we don’t agree, it is worth understanding the perspective of the other side. Since The Biology Of Sex presents the perspective of the other side relatively clearly, it is worth listening to. However, it is important…
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Citizen Tom 
Tom,
What nonsense!!! There’s nothing about a pandemic that makes it necessary for the sitting president to conduct the Republican Convention from the White House and other federal buildings. It’s pure desparation and a total lack of ethics. Trump does the corrupt thing even when the right thing would work just as easy. In this case, he’s too affraid not to openly cheat.
BTW, you don’t ever fact check. You come up with “alternative facts” which is Trumpian lingo for just making up lame excuses, excuses that you would never abide if a Democratic President made them up, excuses for things like trying to hold the G7 at his own golf club, like trying to get the Brits to move a big golf tournament to his country club, like lying to the American voters that he had no business in Russia while at the same time trying to get Putin to approve his hotel in Moscow, like Illegally paying off porn stars so that they wouldn’t tell about his affairs with them, like working with the Russians (through Roger Stone) to release stolen DNC emails right before the election, like defrauding his niece and cheating on his taxes for years, like defrauding his charitable fund so that he had to pay it back and then have it shut down, like defrauding the, umm, students (?) of Trump university so that he had to pay damages in a settlement, and on and on and on, and that doesn’t even include half of what his own attorney said about him or his own National Security advisor said about him or the fact that one of his campaign chairmen, according to the Republican held Senate, was colluding with the Russians and who ultimately went to jail, or that another of his campaign chairmen just got indicted and arrested by the Trump Justice Dept for conning folks out of their money to build a wall and having donors pay for it and on and on and on.
And I haven’t gotten to half the stuff that happened in just the past week, or his ongoing policy to separate innocent children from their parents or his foreign policy failures or his pandemic failures or his economic failures, and on and on and on and on . . . .
I don’t think Trump is the Devil. The Devil at least is more competent than Trump. In fact, it’s Trump’s incompetence as an unabashed corrupt human that may ultimately save the Republic.
But I noticed that you still haven’t claimed that the Trumpublican Party has any semblance to its Christian, Conservative or Republican traditions. I guess on this one is where you just go lost com. 😊
@tsalmon
Yeah! Sure! You don’t think Trump is the devil.
I can point out disaster after disaster in any place run by Democrats. I can point out indisputable malfeasance by Democrats. I can point out obvious instances of bribery, and then you will promptly reel off a list of far lessor “crimes”, most of which only exist in the minds of the news media. I can even point out example after example of why we should not trust the news media. Look at all these racial abuses the police are supposedly responsible for. Even this George Floyd thing apparently doesn’t have anything to do with race. Yet to get Trump the news media turned what a callused and foolish policeman did into a race crime.
Meanwhile, you want to give the government more power, and this is what floors me. We don’t get to vote for perfect people. Instead, we can only pick the candidates we think better, and you want to give these people unlimited powers?
You cannot explain how you would limit the power of the government. So, I must suppose that is why you detest Trump, why you are obsessed with him. He is not your guy. As the president, therefore, he is the enemy of your pantheon of gods, against whom any criticism must either be ignored or punished. Ohhhh, poor dear sweet goddess Hilary Clinton. She was robbed of the chance to fill her favorite charity with buckets of cash from foreign governments. Well, don’t fret. Perhaps lunch bucket Joe will be able to fleece us instead.
Tom,
Seems to me that you spend a lot of time mischaracterizing what other people supposedly think, making up week whataboutisms about a pretty much scandal free administration and changing the subject rather than just trying to keep up with Trump’s corruption anytime and corruption all the time Presidency. Don’t blame you. Trump’s a pretty hard sell after his negligence and incompetence has left going on 200,000 Americans dead, he’s wrecked the economy and he’s doing his level best to organize his base into a violent hatred of government of the people, by the people and for the people.
This should be an interesting week of Republican lies and debacle, but it looks like I may have to evacuate North as two potential hurricanes are barreling in my direction. Just painted the house. Oh well, easy come easy go. Because of of his fear of her, “The Breaker of the Deal” can’t negotiate with a formidable little lady leading the House, so there won’t be any money left in FEMA to clean up the mess and help hurt and stranded people, but what else is new with our King of Corruption and Incompetence.
Have a great week. We will continue this soon I hope.
@tsalmon
Been watching the storms. You could have a rough day tomorrow. Hopefully the storms don’t grow too much in strength. Praying for you.
Please note I have not made a serious attempt to sell Trump. I just ask people to shop and compare. I just point out that the news media and Democrat politicians cannot be trusted, and I point to their outright lies.
In 2016, it was H. Clinton or Trump. I asked people to consider the virtues and the sins of both. Now it is Biden or Trump. All you do is attack Trump. When you cannot talk about the alternative to Trump, you have a problem. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
What is my sin according to you? I voted for Trump, and I think Trump has done much better than I expected. You cannot even take the observation that I think Trump has done better than I expected without having a cow. Supposedly, I have to be brainwashed or some such nonsense.
Meanwhile, you get all your news from news organizations run by those big corporations that Democrats supposedly hate. Their lies are endless. They are the tools of crony capitalists. Check out this, for example.
Tom
i wonder if trans problems are more about parents than genes.
If interested
https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2020/august/texas-judge-reverses-save-james-decision-gives-mom-who-wants-gender-transition-for-boy-all-rights
Regards and goodwill blogging
PS delete my previous comment with wrong link.
Nothing says “science” like this:
If you disagree you obviously aren’t scientific enough.
Yes, Liz, all scientists have a liberal slant, or in this case a libertine one. So this then must sum up the Evangelical Conservative scientific view on sex:
I’m….not going to download that picture and it’s a little too fuzzy to see what’s going on.
I will say I’ve never seen a conservative (whatever their proclivities) dancing around promoting a casual lifestyle of sexual weirdness and calling it “science”.
That “science” claim is a liberal thing.
And of course, anyone who rejects it is anti-science. Also a prude.
It’s a double edged sword of social conditioning.
Anything that isn’t unusual is “vanilla” and normal is “cis”.
We need labels like vanilla to make things particularly scientific.
Liz,
I don’t think people are that homogeneously defined, either Left or Right. Like most things there is a spectrum.
I had never seen that weird video before, nor did I watch the whole thing either. I walk/jog with a fellow Christian friend some mornings, a businessman, and I think that this was the song he was complaining about, although it might be some other waggish rap song praising vaginas. Who knows?
I think that it is wrong to confuse all open mindedness with frivolous libertinism just as it is wrong to confuse all religious moral sensibility with prudishness, projection and hypocrisy. People are a combination of many vectors of influence just as our sexuality obviously is.
But if you want to play this game, I bet I can find as many examples of homophobic, sexually arrested Christian Conservatives caught in various hypocrisies of giving in to the demons that they have suppressed and projected as you can find liberal entertainers not acting seriously.
@tsalmon
Does that mean you are from the dignified, guilt ridden NPR/PBS wing of the Liberal Democrat party, not the shameless and decadent mass media/Hollywood wing?
Instead of repeating pseudo scientific nonsense, think about the meaning of right and wrong. We don’t conform to make and female roles because any of us are perfect males or females. We do it because it is both necessary and right. The spectrum nonsense is just an excuse for fornication, not love
“Instead of repeating pseudo scientific nonsense, think about the meaning of right and wrong. We don’t conform to make and female roles because any of us are perfect males or females. We do it because it is both necessary and right. The spectrum nonsense is just an excuse for fornication, not love.”
Ok, I’ll bite. What exactly is the “necessary and right” “science” of “fornication, not love”? I think that you may confusing the dispassionate epistemology of science with the vice of good old fashioned judgmental moralizing. I don’t think such condescending moralizing is found in many science textbooks, but Jesus had something to say about it in the Gospels, didn’t He?
@tsalmon
If you are going to ask someone a question about what they said, don’t you think you ought ask them about what they said? You put your words in my mouth, and then you think I am confused. 😣
I spoke of conforming to male and female roles as necessary and proper. When we don’t know what those roles are, it is because we lack sufficient instruction in ethics, not science.
What we call science is a relatively unimportant subset of human knowledge. We use science to study God’s Creation. We use science to model cause and effect relationships. However, those who worship the idols of stuff, sex, the state, or their self often worship science too. What is funny is that most of these people don’t understand science very well. Instead, “scientists” scratch their itchy ears by telling them what they want to hear, justifying their sins in the name of “science”.
Why is science a relatively unimportant subset of human knowledge?
Science cannot answer the big questions.
What is science? Science is knowledge we can obtain through the scientific method. See here => https://www.britannica.com/science/scientific-method.
We apply the scientific method to the modeling of cause and effect relationships, and we have been quite successful doing this. However, we have our limits. Often we are incapable to devise an experiment to test our hypothesis. Sometimes we don’t even know how to gather the data we need.
So, you could be entirely right. Homosexuality could have a genetic basis. That scientific knowledge still would not make same-sex marriage right instead of wrong. Science does answer the ethical question. It would just tell us homosexuals have genes that are not working properly.
Consider. The Bible speaks of love as an act of the will. We love each other in obedience to God. Any love that science might measure in our genes would be instinctive. If homosexuals have mangled genes, what do you think science would say about the stability of their marriages? What do you think the data says?
Tom,
I’m not sure that I entirely agree that there is any substantial difference between moral truth and scientific truth, just a seeming difference in the epistemological method. On the other hand, I do think that the limit to our perfect revelation of God’s truth, period, is limited by our finite nature.
Thus, as you say, the smug scientist who pretends his science has, or even can, answer all the questions in such dynamically changing, complex and endlessly ambiguous systems is being some sort of religious fundamentalist, but he is not really being much of a scientist. As an epistemology that finds truth by partial hypothesis and then that theory withstanding various forms of falsification, science requires constant honest skepticism, questioning and wonder. In this way, science, as a means of endless revelation, requires the same sort of humble “faith” (as compared to smug certainty) as our search, our questioning, for moral truth.
I think that it is the smugness of our certainty that you are rightfully critiquing in some supposed scientists who study human genetics, but seem to be forgetting to question in your own smug certainty in judging someone else’s supposed immortality. It is the difference between “faith” and certainty, pride in dogmatism and virtuous morality and moralizing in the search for the grace of revelation of God’s infinite truth in ALL areas of possible human knowledge that you seem to be lost about. It seems to me that you obviously neither have it all figured out in your simplistic binary view of the complex science of human sexual genetics nor do you have it all figured out in the corresponding complex morality of human sexuality, but you like to pretend that you do so that you can judge others supposed moral “malfunctions” just as you think you can judge someone’s diversity as a supposedly unnatural “malfunction”.
What you don’t seem to understand is that it is the “nature” of creation to malfunction (a paradox) and that we are al, in God’s nature, malfunctions of some sort. To be a malfunction is to be natural. It’s being perfect in humans . . . materially, spiritually, physically, morally . . . that is not natural or at least exceedingly rare it seems.
@tsalmon
If you want to render words meaningless, then we can’t discuss anything. If the word “science” means anything in the context we have used it, then by definition there is a distinct difference between moral truth and scientific truth. Is the difference due to the difference in epistemological method used to discern moral truths and scientific theories? In part, but the real difference is that moral truths and scientific truths are different subjects. How are moral truths related to scientific truths? Science helps us to discern what is going on.
If I have received a positive test for a virus, understand the germ theory of disease and realize I am contagious, that the virus I have can kill an elderly person, then I have a moral problem that I would not otherwise have. I have to quarantine myself. Science, however, does not tell me that killing someone is wrong.
I think you meant immorality, not immortality.
We don’t judge other people, but we do judge each other’s words and deeds. The Bible says fornication, sex outside marriage is wrong. It also says same-sex relationships are wrong, period. The Bible says a man and a woman can marry, but two people of the same sex cannot.
Sheesh! Highly contrived excuses just help to make the reason the Bible condemns homosexuality and related perversions obvious.
“ Consider. The Bible speaks of love as an act of the will. We love each other in obedience to God. Any love that science might measure in our genes would be instinctive. If homosexuals have mangled genes, what do you think science would say about the stability of their marriages? What do you think the data says?”
This is worth exploring again.
Just using language like “mangled” implies an attitude of superior moral judgement. That attitude implies that you completely comprehend some perfect human template. This is an attitude of smugness that, if you truly contemplate it objectively, you would rightly criticize as neither truly scientific nor moral if it were me doing the same, don’t you think?
The data points that you bring up may be interesting, but they are hardly conclusive of anything, either scientific or moral.
Remember that people used the same arguments to criticize mixed race marriages: that they were “unnatural”, that they were inherently difficult and unstable, that they were hard on the kids . . . . As out society changed, it’s amazing how that “data” about those arcane taboos changed, and even became absurd, isn’t it?
Let’s even assume that that data that you claim is conclusive were indeed a lasting quality of our trying various combinations of consenting adults on the spectrum of sexual biology. I would simply say to let the one with the perfect heterosexual marriage and the perfect child rearing results go ahead and throw that first stone. I don’t want to decide what the perfect model is for everyone else and I sure don’t want you deciding for me. I mean Tom, suppose the “data” were to show that parents who schooled their children at home with a deep emphasis on religious belief we’re somehow less socialized or smart on accepted areas of knowledge, or had problems adjusting. At first you would probably question the underlying prejudices of those who formulated the data collection and then you would rightfully say, “So What”? The data, even if correct, had a fatal flaw with how they prioritized what is important when they started collecting the data in the first place. Do you see what I mean.
@tsalmon
If a male baby does not develop into a man that is a problem. If a female baby does not develop into woman, that is problem. If a door slams on hand and breaks some of bones, that a problem. Such problems mangle the proper function of your body. If you cannot accept that, we don’t have any common ground. Our values are too different.
Consider https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2020/august/texas-judge-reverses-save-james-decision-gives-mom-who-wants-gender-transition-for-boy-all-rights. Rudy provided the link here => https://citizentom.com/2020/08/19/what-happens-when-we-make-science-all-about-me/comment-page-1/#comment-95606.
I don’t claim to know much about this particular case. The point is that this sort of thing is happening, and we should be concerned when parents start transitioning children who don’t appear to have any definable problems. It is child abuse. The hormones don’t really kick until puberty, and that usually solves any confusion issues. However, if the mother starts transitioning this child (even just hormone treatment), whatever she has done could mess the poor child up for life. The medical treatments use to transgender people are not reversible.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/08/update-judge-orders-texas-father-pay-5000-month-ex-wife-can-transition-son-james-girl-named-luna/
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/megan-fox/2020/08/14/heartbreak-judge-puts-james-younger-back-under-mothers-control-while-ordering-father-to-pay-for-it-n792339
https://www.christianpost.com/news/woman-intent-on-gender-transitioning-8-year-old-james-younger-into-girl-wins-back-medical-decision-making.html
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/court-axes-save-james-ruling-mom-who-wants-gender-transition-for-8-yr-old-regains-decision-rights
I don’t pretend to know everything. I just think our lack of knowledge requires caution. “Do no harm.” As an institution, marriage primarily exists to ensure children have both a father and a mother. Nothing has been shown to give children a better start in life than a home with both a father and a mother.
Would two parents of the same sex work as well? Well, there is that first problem. How do they conceive a child? Since it is a dead end (survival of the fittest it ain’t), it is easy and quite scientific even in accordance with your own beliefs to argue that a same-sex marriage is unnatural.
Another problem is that such a marriage probably won’t be stable. Marriage is difficult enough for two people of the opposite sex. Look at the problems James Younger’s parents are having. If two people of the same sex want to marry, we already know something quirky (to put it politely) is going on.
Oh, and on “love”, how do we easily define that? Even the Bible in its most original languages has several words for “love”, each with a distinct meaning if looked at in a specific context. But even if you open your thinking to include each of those definitions, you have just started to explore what God was telling us about love in the Bible, you haven’t determinatively resolved “everything” about it. Even the Bible doesn’t determine “everything” – it just gives us one great place to start in our exploration of the mystery, the sublime nature of God with constant wonder and awe and gratitude and praise.
@tsalmon
I have posted on this before. This post responded to some of your comments.
https://citizentom.com/2016/02/15/does-god-hate-what-is-the-logic-of-love/
This post more directly addresses your concern.
https://citizentom.com/2014/08/24/a-bible-study-are-christians-suppose-to-love-everyone-the-same-way-part-2/
But if you want to play this game, I bet I can find as many examples of homophobic, sexually arrested Christian Conservatives caught in various hypocrisies of giving in to the demons that they have suppressed and projected as you can find liberal entertainers not acting seriously.
You may not have noticed from the video (though it would take about two seconds), this was not made for adults. Perhaps you’ve heard of Bill Nye the “science guy”?
A show made for children. Ostensibly about “science”.
I am not “playing a game” here when I say there is a clear, very obvious, and concerted effort to indoctrinate children into this mindset.
This starts with shaming the normal (“vanilla”) and mainstreaming the abnormal.
The line was crossed when “tolerance” (which is reasonable) crossed over into forced acceptance and mandated promotion.
When I saw Bill Nye I wondered, but I have not watched TV in years. Such as Bill Nye is one of the reasons why.
This was an Netflix special, a few years ago. They also had a cartoon with a vanilla scoop of ice cream to show how boring that was, as other scoops of “funner” ice creams made fun of him and enticed him into an ice cream orgy of sorts.
When I was boy, I saw my parents watching a Ben Casey TV show that had a homosexual guy rejecting a woman because of his preferences. That was in the early 60’s, and that was the first time I saw something related to this topic on TV. Ever since then the envelop pushing has continued with increasing fervor.
Was that a legitimate topic for the Ben Casey TV show? I suppose so. Was the homosexual guy sympathetically portrayed? Yeah, and there is nothing inherently wrong with that.
The mass media has a right to advocate a cause. Still, when we have videos like that one you dug up, it is kind of strange that LGBTQ advocates complain about hate speech. When people with some perverse ideas about sex are obviously out to pervert children, there is a problem. The point of that Ben Casey TV show was that the homosexual had a problem he could not fix, not tha there was something desirable about his condition. Now being such a “victim” has become a weirdly desired status. Objectively, that doesn’t make sense.
Yep. Apparently Netflix is coming out with another series that sexualizes 11 year old girls next month. Entitled “Cuties”. She steals from her parents and runs away to dance, or something. At any rate…
It’s LGBTQIA now. You must be anti-science not to have kept up. Also a hater.
(moving our second son into the dorm now, that’s how I knew the new acronym, there’s a LGBTQIA club, also a multicultural club, and some other SJW club which name escapes me)
Excuse me, not clubs…”three signature living and learning communities”
It’s worth noting there are no conservative “living and learning community” equivalents. This will be interesting. I wonder if they’ve ever seen a pair of 511 tactical pants? Those are the only type pants he owns.
@Liz
Interesting idea. Had not heard of tactical pants. For 50 bucks they sound like a decent buy. Tough, comfortable, and they look good. I will have to look into them next time I buy clothing.
When I was in the military we had battle dress uniforms. Comfortable and rugged, but they are a bit too obvious and go with combat boots. I got away with wearing the old utility uniform pants in college, and I had to because the jeans back then were made for boys with beanpole legs. Since then the baby boomers have grown old and want loose fitting jeans. Those I can wear. Had not thought of wearing something like tactical pants. Maybe I will switch.
@Liz
I honestly don’t get the thing these Hollywood creeps have for perverting children. Anything for money? That’s not it. They have gone so far into the sewer there is more money to be had when they make decent films.
I guess I am not alone in my bafflement. Most people don’t understand sociopaths. Still, I don’t know why more people don’t turn off the crap they produce.
Liz,
Honestly don’t care to defend anything, much less “everything” that is on various forms of media these days. The wonderful thing about this is that, if you don’t like it, you don’t gave to watch it. If you don’t think it is suitable for kids, don’t let YOUR kids watch it. If you really enjoy getting outraged about the things that you disapprove of that other people watch, then you will have endless hours of enjoyment.
In her studies of Polynesian Islanders, famed anthropologist, Margret Mead, noted that, because children grew up in the same one room huts with their parents, through observation, those children became familiar with nudity and sex. As long the culture had certain sexual boundaries making children off limits for sex until they came of age, the children seemed unharmed by their early familiarity with sex. In fact, Mead observed that the children grew up with far less of a mystic about sex than In Western Culture, and thus sexual pathologies such as sexual fetishism were unheard of.
Mead once said, “Always remember that you are absolutely unique. Just like everyone else.“
I thought the intersex woman’s TED Talk was a very human story, a story that points to to ubiquitousness of uniqueness that Mead was talking about. Mead also famously said, “Anthropology demands the open-mindedness with which one must look and listen, record in astonishment and wonder that which one would not have been able to guess.“
I don’t understand how anyone can listen to that story without “astonishment and wonder” and also withou the empathy that makes her story, her human dilemma, everyone’s story.
But I got it. You and Tom have it all figured out. Astonishment and wonder have been crushed by a smug moral certainty, which manifests in endless moralistic disapproval. I find that kind of sad.
You and Tom have it all figured out. Astonishment and wonder have been crushed by a smug moral certainty, which manifests in endless moralistic disapproval. I find that kind of sad.
I didn’t listen to the TED talk.
I’m not sure why one story, however poignant, matters so much.
I do remember explaining about a friend’s daughter who had to leave a sports team because she was uncomfortable in the aggressively homosexual environment and you basically ignored it. Perhaps my anecdote was not “human” enough.
Indeed, we are “smug” and “moral”.
It is very sad. Not so enlightened as you.
I’m not sure why one story, however poignant, matters so much.
For clarity, by this I mean my anecdote didn’t seem to matter one bit…so why does this anecdote matter so much more?
We can go into actual behavioral conditioning. Like, science and stuff, and how behavioral conditioning works. But you don’t seem to care about that sort of science.
I’ll add that Island cultures, due to the nature of their isolation, have some of the strangest cultures on earth. Nothing to be admired. From cannibalism to pedophilia. I don’t really care what Margret had to say about it/
“I didn’t listen to the TED talk.”
Well, of course Liz, you don’t have to listen to anything that you don’t want to, but because Tom posted the link here and wrote this post about it, it is kind of relevant to the discussion. The first segment is only about 12 minutes. For adults, there’s nothing really racy about it. It’s a very human story. I think that you should listen to it slowly and openly. As a mother, I’d be curious to know what you would do, how you would feel, if she were your child. As a woman, I would like to know how you would feel if she were you, and how you would treat her if she were your friend before you found out that she had X and Y chromosomes?
“I don’t really care what Margret had to say about it”
Surely you must be joking? You are exemplifying my point about closed minded smug certainty way too exactly. You must be doing it on purpose. 🙃
@tsalmon
@Liz
tsalmon, one of the things that confounds me is when someone like you suggests someone like Liz is closed minded. How can you be so smart and still be so thickheaded? Do you seriously think a Conservative can avoid all the indoctrination we receive from our educational system or the mainstream news media? In fact, I did not become a serious Conservative until relatively late in life. For example, at first I thought NPR was great. Then I realized I was paying taxes so politicians could indoctrinate me, to teach me that what is good is evil and what is evil is good (Isaiah 5:20).
Did I listen to the TED talk? Yes. I am retired, and I now make it my business now to do what little I can to counter such pseudointellectual nonsense. Some clown with a degree calls something science, and that makes it science? Is that not what you believe?
Fact is that Marxists and Socialists are exploiting racism and class envy and various forms of identity politics for political purposes. Marxists and Socialists condemn Judeo-Christian beliefs and the traditional family structure, and these people are running much of our educational system. That’s why lots of the George Floyd rioters are white, and the most interminable riots are taking place in areas dominated by whites.
Do I believe there is some great conspiracy, like Trump’s collusion with the Russians to steal 2016 election?😉 No. I just believe that Satan is real. I don’t know how Satan does what he does. I just know God is real, and He says Satan is real, and to stand against Satan we must believe in God.
We don’t have race problem in our country anymore. We don’t even lack for LGBTQ tolerance. Our problem is that too many people believe outright lies.
Satan is the father of lies.
As a mother, I’d be curious to know what you would do, how you would feel, if she were your child.
I would attempt to make “her” life as normal as possible under the circumstances, just as I would if I had a child with any other type of very rare affliction. I wouldn’t expect the world to normalize the affliction because my child had it.
As a woman, I would like to know how you would feel if she were you, and how you would treat her if she were your friend before you found out that she had X and Y chromosomes?
I wouldn’t care. If she were my friend and wanted to talk about it, I’d listen (assuming this wouldn’t be such a life consuming topic she spoke of nothing else, and became exceedingly politically inflammatory….in which case we would cease to have anythig in commmon).
Surely you must be joking? You are exemplifying my point about closed minded smug certainty way too exactly. You must be doing it on purpose.
No, I’m not joking. I don’t care what the lady who lived on an Island had to say about sexual fetishism. Fetishism is whatever we define it as. At one time, was an act of fetishism for a man to wear female clothing. Now they have a new term for it and it’s considered “natural” for a man to tuck in his penis and wear a bra. No dysfunction there! Only an anti science person would disagree. In Papa New Guinea there’s a tribe that is really avant guard. They’ve completely cured “homophobic, sexually arrested Christian tendencies” by forcing adolescent boys to drink vast quantities of male sperm via sodomy, until they come of age. For their (obviously comparatively unpleasant) conjugal duties they place herbs in the nasal passages so as not to be subjected to the smell of their wives.
Glad the paragraphs are separated now, in the post above. Initially when I submitted it the thing looked like a long run-on sentence. Thought WordPress screwed the pooch on that one (pun intended!).
Speaking of which, bestiality was ubiquitous in ancient Egypt.
They must’ve been on the spectrum!
@Liz
There is a problem with trying to shock Liberal Democrats. Consider what it means when we start calling what is good evil and what is evil good. We begin losing the ability to discern the difference between good from evil. Therefore, vile behavior ceases to shock us. Instead, good behavior raises our ire.
So, while I hope tsalmon finds your examples shocking, I don’t know for certain if he will. For generations, Conservatives have pointed out the dangers of accepting behavior that the Bible condemns as socially acceptable. We have been increasingly ignored and abhorred.
When what is moral become culturally relative, the morally corrupt just work on changing their own culture to make their own behavior socially acceptable. Hence, those who support pedophilia now advocate openly, and the open-minded just ask “where is the harm. They just ‘love’ each other.”
Oh, now I get it. It’s because I misspelled her first name. You got me Liz. If I could spell, I cudda been somebody.
“We can go into actual behavioral conditioning. Like, science and stuff, and how behavioral conditioning works. But you don’t seem to care about that sort of science.”
Liz,
I think again that again you presume too much. Have you read about Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or CBT? Behavioral Psychology was in disrepute and being replaced by drug therapy until this area was advanced.
It deals with certain cognitive distortions where people become trip wired into negative feedback loops, and how to rewire one’s brain in order to inhibit those harmful defaults. It seems to work better than drug therapy or drug therapy alone, and is more lasting effects.
If you are not familiar with CBT, I can recommend several books. I would start with “Feeling Good” by David Burns.
Humans are social animals.
If you want to see more of something, normalize and incentivize it.
You see this every day (or look at the examples I mentioned above…and history is replete with them (see ancient Greece and Rome), especially dysfunction in the isolated Island societies).
A good deal of harm results when society worries more about offending the folks with dysfunctions than enforcing reasonable boundaries. The fat acceptance movement is a pretty direct and obvious example (perhaps we could agree on that one?). Acceptance of bastardy another. Entire communities are impacted by the absence of fathers. But once it becomes ubiquitous and accepted it flourishes. Then there’s the portion of society that has pushed the thought experiment that sexual profligacy has no emotional impact (on women in particular) and the real problem is the conservatives who make them feel badly….well, we can see the results now of the “sex and the city” culture. The women who praised it (celebrities in particular) have incredibly dysfunctional lives, as do their families (the ones who have them).
-nuff said
Before you say celebrities are a bad example as they are extreme outliers, I only use them as an example to make the point….in the military we’ve seen vast examples but those people are not household names. The consequences are just as bad or worse for them. Celebrities make the point as a good portion practice such destructiveness and they have every resource at hand to offer better results. Yet the results are still horrible.
Tom,
I question whether Liz becoming a parody of closed mindedness is really just her way of being funny.
In any event, you seem to have cast your reality into a dark vision where you are one of the tribal forces of good battling the against Satanic tribal forces of evil (which I can only presume that you think I somehow represent). Strangely, this is just the kind of distortion on a societal scale for which CBT provides some insight if you wish to look into it.
Why is this strange dualistic tribal view distorted? Well, there are many reasons. However, a good place to start is that the current aberration that is the Trumpublican Party is not in any traditional sense Conservative, Republican or Christian. I can go into all the reasons why again if you want, but when the former Republican President and the former Republican candidates are essentially unwelcome at Trump’s whatever you call this thing that is passing for a convention, then you have some strange new beast slouching toward DC to be born, but over the past four years Republican Christian Conservatism has simply died a slow excruciating death. And just as both Bushes, Romney and McCain lost their welcome in your new Trump Cult, Reagan would not even recognize this abomination that now projects it’s own demons and shadows everywhere as what used to be the Republican Party.
As just one of many examples of how your gang is not Christian, Conservative or Republican, look at the violation of the Hatch Act and pretty clear violations of traditional party ethics that is being perpetrated by Trump holding much of the Party Convention in a Federal Building in DC (conveniently less than a block from the Trump Hotel there) and Trump’s plan to give his acceptance speech from the White House lawn with federal employees presumably in attendance and making all the preparations. My guess is that it will still be a massive dumpster fire just as everything Trump leads is.
@tsalmon
Sometimes all I can do is laugh. You cast Trump as the Devil, and I am the one with the dark vision because I say Satan exists. You do realize the Bible says Satan has already lost?
Given we have this coronavirus thing, if Trump wants to give his speech on the White House lawn, who cares? He is the president. He lives there, and it is not costing us anything. As to your presumptions, I could not care less. Every time I have bothered factchecked your presumptions, you just clammed up.
“Satan is the father of lies.”
Perhaps, but right now it seems that Trump is giving Satan a run for his money. 😉
@tsalmon
Your vision is darker than mine.
Liz,
I assume that you listened to her segment. I think her particular situation is rare, but I don’t believe various forms of intersex persons are that rare, nor do I think that a range of sexual identities and preferences are rare. Nor do I think we should treat rareness or difference necessarily as morally bad. Nor finally do I think, unless one is without flaws, should we treat everyone else’s moral flaws with a smug moralism rather than the Christian love and mercy that recognizes that we ourselves are not without our own sins (and yes, that includes fat people, cross dressers, exotic dancers, prostitutes, adulterers, drug addicts, the mentally dIsturbed and any number of other peccadilloes that, but for the grace of God, may or may not be yours or my personal issues).
If you don’t see the moral difference between someone truly harming innocent people and tolerating, or even appreciating the unique, the exotic, the strange and even the flamboyant, then my explaining it won’t do much good. The grace of God comes to us all on His schedule as long as we maintain a sense of humble openness, questioning and wonder. Liz, you seem to be doing this in your own way and time, as I am in mine. I have so much to learn.
Must go now. Enjoyed the discussion.
@Liz
@tsalmon
“I think” you don’t treat “flaws” of those who disagree your vastly superior judgement and perception with any humility.
Oh, and Liz, because you apparently know everything about this, you probably don’t care, but Mead also wrote of many of the social pathologies that you are taking about. She was not approving.
@tsalmon
Oh! It was okay for the great and wise Margaret Mead to approve of social pathologies. She was an “expert”.
No one is telling you you cannot make your own decisions. It is the other way around.
I think her particular situation is rare, but I don’t believe various forms of intersex persons are that rare, nor do I think that a range of sexual identities and preferences are rare.
As I said, such things become more and more common as they are promoted, celebrated as “cool”, and even mandated via incentives. I could back this with statistics if needed. I did once post an article entitled “A new way to be mad” that documented this phenomenon very well.
If you don’t see the moral difference between someone truly harming innocent people and tolerating, or even appreciating the unique, the exotic, the strange and even the flamboyant, then my explaining it won’t do much good.
Yet I explained at the beginning of this conversation there is a difference between tolerance and mandated acceptance and promotion.
Feel free to “appreciate” whatever behaviors you like. Right now we have widespread forced acceptance (examples available upon request). I’ve explained what happens with incentives and disincentives.
It’s worth noting these are the same people who claim to want to keep the government out of the bedroom. I don’t care what consenting adults do in private.
When they force acceptance in public (especially when enforced via legislation, especially in the form of indoctrinating children) it becomes my concern.
Different, but definitely related: Obesity is a widespread problem today. Food is pleasant and tastes good. In vast quantities (particularly in the form of sugar, fat, other types of “junk”) it is extremely deleterious to the consumer. Over the course of three or so decades, as obesity became more and more accepted, more people became fat. These are not (typically) very happy people…though they eat whatever they want, they are extremely unhappy. I think the latest poll indicated the average working woman would trade 100,000 dollars salary to be a normal size. They’d give up sex. What is blamed? Not their life choices, but self-esteem and social disapproval. In an era where Target has fat mannequins and acceptance has never been higher, they still blame society instead of pushing away from the table.
-nuff said.
@Liz
There is a phrase that became popular in the sixties, “if it feels good, do it!” I fear that phrase indicates the limits of some people’s wisdom.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/12/a-new-way-to-be-mad/304671/
Trigger warning: this is not a pleasant subject. But folks who think that mental illness has no social component should really read it.
@Liz
I scanned the article. Don’t have the stomach or the time to read too carefully. Time? There almost eight billion people in the world. Since we are all fallen creatures, there is something wrong with all of us, and sometimes we express our sinfulness in the most inexplicable ways. Who has the time or the desire to learn every stupid way people have figured out to destroy themselves?
Our bodies, even as they are, are most amazing gifts. Why would anyone want to destroy something so personal that God has given them? I expect many of those who do also reject God. Without God we must live with a gnawing emptiness.
As that Atlantic writer observed, amputee wannabes have something in common with those who have gender disorders. I have never seen a poll — would not have much trust in such a poll anyway — but many of the LGBTQ people I have run into on the Internet are Atheists. Since the Bible explicitly condemns homosexuality, I imagine the vast majority of the LGBTQ are Atheists, and there is no doubt the LGBTQ are self destructive.
How is that relevant amputee wannabes? My guess is that the amputee wannabes are also Atheists, and Atheism is akin to insanity. When we idolize the things of this world, sex, stuff, science, state, and self, our pride demands we do anything we can to elevate ourselves over others. Even though becoming a victim is an odd way to elevate ourselves, the news media and Liberal Democrats have made victimhood desirable. Critical Race Theory has made victims powerful. So, being disabled is not what it use to be, and Atheists will do anything to elevate themselves.
A few things I found most interesting in the article was:
1) how such an extreme and unpleasant, obviously insane outlier condition could explode in popularity after being introduced to popular culture, even briefly.
2) how being given a classification can change the person’s view of themselves, even to the point of false memories.
This is tangentially related to many, many human behaviors (including identifying with groups)
This is why a Biblical foundation is so important. Everyone is programmed in one way or another (especially during childhood).
@Liz
I think the important thing about being introduced to the Bible when we are young is that we are more willing to listen. The idea of a holy God is actually quite terrifying until we understand that God loves us.
The whole thing is worth reading.
A small portion of the article: Crucial to the way this worked is what Hacking calls the “looping effect,” by which he means how a classification affects the thing being classified. Unlike objects, people are conscious of the way they are classified, and they alter their behavior and self-conceptions in response to their classification. Look at the concept of “genius,” Hacking says, and the way it affected the behavior of people in the Romantic period who thought of themselves as geniuses. Look also at the way in which their behavior in turn affected the concept of genius. This is a looping effect. In the 1970s, he argues, therapists started asking patients they thought might be multiples if they had been abused as children, and patients in therapy began remembering episodes of abuse (some of which may not have actually occurred). These memories reinforced the diagnosis of multiple-personality disorder, and once they were categorized as multiples, some patients began behaving as multiples are expected to behave. Not intentionally, of course, but the category “multiple-personality disorder” gave them a new way to be mad.
Just to add, this doesn’t only apply to sexuality or sexual identity but also recalled memories of many types.
There are documented cases of assault/abuse that did not happen but were suggested over time by the counselor/psychiatrist until the person started to identify as a victim and have actual recollection of events that did not occur. I do not believe it takes a counselor to start this mental feedback loop. People are susceptible to the power of suggestion. That is why I am concerned when dysfunctions are promoted as acceptable and even healthy lifestyle choices.
@tsalmon
You shove that in my face, but then you don’t see irony. Which of us insists upon placing our faith in man?
Clue. The Bible says all of us are sinners.
Exactly Tom, it was meant to drip with irony, but literalism makes some people blind to ironic rhetoric. Irony is not the opposite of wrinkly, you know?😉
@tsalmon
When I have a choice believing the Bible or someone who does not know what they are talking about, I believe the Bible. You want to call that literalism? I call it being literate.
Again, you prove my point.😏
@tsalmon
You think so? Then clearly state your point so we know what your point is.
@Liz
Yep!
No, instead I believe that this is what happens when a few people try to cram the wonders of science to fit into their small thinking. I hope people listen to the broadcast with an open mind and a contrite open heart. To paraphase Shakespeare’s Hamlet:
There are more things in God’s Heaven and Earth, Tom, than are dreamt of in your little ideology. 😌
@tsalmon
So, you are so contrite you make your point by belittling your opponent instead of making your case.
Our DNA and RNA serves as the plan for putting us together. What is wonderful is when DNA and RNA serve its purpose and works well. When our DNA or RNA gets garbled, the results are usually quite sad.
Imagine if the architectural plans for a twelve story building were garbled in transmission to the building crew. So, they inserted the roof on top of the fifth story instead at the top of the building. Wonder of science, right?
Tom,
Your concept assumes some Barbie and Ken archetype model humans and that every other variation of human is a corruption from that perfection. Like I said, I’m no expert on this, but it appears to defy what the experts say about how chromosome strands combine and even mutate into possibilities that are powers of ten, again stars in the sky, grains of sand on all the beaches type numbers.
Your assumption that imperfect functionality connotes moral abomination is also inherently fascist and totalitarian if you just think about it. It is an inability to tolerate an extravagance of diversity. It is the presumption to know for God the purpose of each of Her extravagances and Her allowances for imperfection and fragility, which are to be accepted for what and who they are and which are to be castigated and condemned, even though that person does you no harm. Do you seriously think such judging is a Christian sensibility?
You say that I am belittling rather than debating, but rather than really listen to that beautiful intersex woman and truly appreciate her unique humanity as all humanity, you have dismissed her and said that her wants and needs don’t matter. She can’t play in your reindeer games.
@tsalmon
I answered the Barbie and Ken silliness just before you wrote it. Check out the second paragraph.
https://citizentom.com/2020/08/19/what-happens-when-we-make-science-all-about-me/comment-page-1/#comment-95593
Have I attacked anyone personally? No. I have said certain things are right and certain things are wrong, and we should not manipulate what we call science to justify ourselves.
If shark bit your leg off, would you glorify having sharks bite people’s legs off? Of course not, but you are glorifying genetic malfunctions just because it makes sexually confused people feel good. Moreover, you don’t even have proof most of the sexually confused have a genetic malfunction that provides the basis for their confusion.