1. Trump’s one superpower has been his pro-wrestlinglike ability to create a glimmering facade of some kind as a substitute for the hard work, humility and sacrifice that it takes to practice real virtue, real manliness and real Christian love. An ineffective and expensive big wall rather than real immigration reform, hollow photo ops with brutal dictators rather than the hard work of building allied coalitions to isolate and pressure bad state actors, an extravagant comb over to hide his baldness, orange face paint to hide his unhealthy parlor and now the ham handed, upside down foisting if a borrowed Bible (that his daughter pulled out of her expensive designer bag) as a comb over for his lack of basic Christian compassion and love. What I couldn’t figure out was why he would put on such a blatantly weak spectacle when Trump’s usually much better at this kind of all-glitz-and-no-substance showmanship?

    Then I read that Trump’s poll numbers are slipping and Republicans are having to spend money in usually reliably red states like Ohio and Arizona. More terrifying for Trump, his poll numbers are crashing amongst evangelicals and conservative Catholics who are finally growing disgusted by Trump’s blatant moral childishness and endless incompetence in the face of one mishandled disaster after another.

    Trump was desperate to send a message to his slipping base that, yes he’s an incompetent scoundrel, but he’s THEIR incompetent scoundrel. In other words, this bazaar spectacle that makes a merciful Christ into an awkward stage prop for violence (and the promise of more violence to come) is Trump’s way of saying to the self-proclaimed “culture of life” that, even if hundreds of thousands of people have to die because of his incompetence, he is their only dark avenging angel if they want to maintain control of the SCOTUS.

    Now it makes sense. I guess it worked too, right?

    1. @tsalmon

      You are ranting. All you are doing is telling me how much you hate. Step back and consider what you are saying. Lots of cute needling, but there is no substance to it.

      You don’t like what Trump represents, but that does not make what you stand for any better. You think you are REASONABLE. The rest of us must kneel in subservience to what you stand for. You are not God. Take a cold shower and cool off. Nobodies rights come from you or the politicians you vote for. Our rights come from God. Our Lord doesn’t want us to kneel before some mob or any other idol.

      1. Tom,

        Do you really see how infantile that Trumpian ploy is? Where was this supposed “rant”? I’m just calmly pointing out the facts behind Trump’s obvious spectacles. (You don’t think it was a “spectacle”?, Seriously?).

        You don’t dispute those facts because you don’t really have a serious counter argument. Instead, you pull out Trump’s fav childish school yard retort: “I know you are but what am I?”

        Nope. No “hate”. No emotion. No ranting here. No name calling other than calling a guy who scoundrels a scoundrel. You do admit that he is a lifetime scoundrel don’t you?

        Thid is you and Trump’s little venal game, not mine. Trump, your fearfilled leader, is the unabashed King of name calling, bullying, kissing up and kicking down, the snide innuendo, the spreading of the baseless conspiracy theories. (Remember “Little Marco”, remember your “Lying Ted” who’s father assasinated JFK, remember Birtherism, and now it’s that his talk show host critic is some secret murderer). Come on, you must know what I’m saying is the cold hard truth?

        No, you don’t even see it do you? The gall of saying that I’m naming calling when I point out the obvious, all while you worship adoringly at the feet of the god of lies and innuendos. It would be hilarious irony, if it were not so sad good brother. 😟

        1. Tom,

          Just read IB’s post. She is a thoughtful person and there is much there to applaud in what she wrote. I do agree that it is dangerous to criticize one believer’s loving interpretation and use of scripture in order to judge and condemn the sins of another person. We are all sinners who, as Jesus said, aren’t qualified to use scripture as our personal or group rocks to stone our neighbors with. I don’t claim to be innocent of this Christian hypocrisy, and if you say that you are, then you are either lying or have deluded yourself into believing your own lies. There are at least two problems with what IN wrote in respect to what Trump did, however.

          First, it is hard to imagine that Trump’s shameful walk was anything more than a badly staged spectacle. One should be very careful that one does not commit sacrilege by using sacred things for obscene spectacles. Creating a “spectacle” in and of itself is not wrong. One could say that God created the ultimate spectacle through Jesus’ life and crucifixion. It does matter, however, what is the purpose for which Trump was using the Bible and the a Christian Church for a his obvious stage show. Was it to profess the love of our savior and call in His name for peace? I think not.

          Second, by committing a violent act in clearing out peaceful protesters, including members and clergy of the Church he was using as a backdrop for his staged scene, Trump was doing exactly what IB proclaims to find abhorrent. Using holy scripture to bash other people over the head.

          I have given my hypothesis on the crass political calculation Trump made to profane and mock the Bible and a Christian Church. I could be wrong on those exact reasons. Life is often more complex than simple explanations, and Trump has more sick instincts than he has actual cold calculations. However, I stand by the fact that I think it was a profane and disgusting display by any Christian standard.

          1. @tsalmon
            Here is a video of the incident you find so offensive. Please note the church is boarded up, and it was boarded up to keep our president out of it.

            So, tell me how Biden will do anything better than Trump? Is it by not being concerned when thugs try to burn down a church?

          2. Biden is capable of some amazing gaffs, but no, I don’t think Biden would, without warning, assault, bludgeon and tear gas peaceful protesters off public property just so he could go uninvited (and unwelcome under those violent circumstances) to a church where clergy and parish members were actually providing aid and refreshments to the protesters just so he could awkwardly hold a borrowed Bible upside down for a divisive political stunt. No one but Trump is that tone deaf, that profane, that stupid.

            Sorry, you’ll be glad to know I need to sign off for a while. Some tropical storm is headed our way, and I should get ready for it. Love you brother.

          3. @tsalmon

            Since you reasserted an untruth, your argument lacks merit. Don’t know why you did that. What’s the point?

            Good luck with the storm. Something to chat about on Tuesday, I hope. May our Lord watch over you and yours.

  2. This is a comment that was put on Facebook by a good friend and airline pilot mentor of mine named Ian, an old former Marine, and along with this comment Ian posted a picture of his black grandson wearing the aviators:

    “George Floyd; Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, Trayvon Martin; Tamir Rice…I’m an old, white, upper middle class retiree living in a small town on the Left side of Oregon. What’s this got to do with me? Globally, as someone professing to follow Jesus – the One who was always on the side of the marginalized, the downtrodden, the oppressed – these murders should concern me. But now it’s personal. A few days ago I gave my beloved grandson my aviator Ray-Bans because I can’t wear them anymore. I wanted him to have something that was significant to me. I hoped he would think they were cool, but I really wanted the gift to convey that he is loved and valued. My grandson is sweet, and loyal, and generous. He has siblings and a baby niece who adore him. He has a brand new beautiful bride who loves him. This young man whom I love, Kaream, is not a threat. I’d be obliged if you would let him live.“

    My comment to my friend was that his grandson looked way cooler in the glasses than Ian ever did. 😎

    1. @tsalmon

      Yeah, as a racist deplorable I am just aching to kill black people, NOT!

      You are trying to make a point, but you are so emotional you cannot figure out what it is. Instead of using the brain God gave you, you are letting a partisan news media get you all worked up.

      People want to protest and make a bunch a noise over a policeman who abused the authority his badge gave him? After the authorities have already started to do the right thing? Who cares? Rioting, however, killing policemen, beating up people and destroying property are not a protected rights. If President Trump wants governors and mayors to lock up rioters, why would you object? Because CNN objects? Because those governors and mayors are Democrats? Are you really that dumb?

      1. I’m emotional? And yet you are the one attacking my intelligence? Right….

        Stop being so emotional yourself and step back to take in and enjoy the “American carnage” that you have hoped for all these years. Not turning out the way you expected?

        I think that you sense that these nationwide (even worldwide) protests represent a bigger, mostly peaceful, rising groundswell against inequities that have been brewing for some time. A sadistic police officer in Minnesota just lit the match for a bonfire that was ready to blossom into flame when, while we all whined about having to sit at home and watch Netflix, the poorest of us lost their jobs, the poorest of us risked their lives to pick up our garbage and make sure we had food to eat, and of course, the poorest of us of color are predominantly the ones doing the getting sick and the dying. You were mad because you could not exercise your supposedly God given right to go to church and, like a good Christian, risk infecting yourself and your oldest parishioners, but last night your moral imbecile leader of your gang climbed out of the bunker he’s been hiding in and used excessive force to break up and move a peaceful protest off the people’s property just so he could stage a political photo op where he waved a Bible that he obviously doesn’t follow like a prop in front of a church he never goes to. (BTW, the Episcopal bishop of that old and damaged church sides with the protesters).

        A bad apple, a cop who had been allowed to rot on the Minneapolis force for years, finally lit a firestorm that has been smoldering for decades and the pandemic made into a waiting tinderbox. And now our moral coward of a President doesn’t know how to douse the flames with anything but gasoline.

        Isn’t this the conflagration you hoped for? Nope? I guess history’s ideologues, those who Reinhold Niebuhr called “the children of light”, are always surprised when their deterministic schemes are inevitably coopted and corrupted by the chaos where the cynical children of darkness like Trump lurk and thrive. 😏

        1. @tsalmon

          The ““American carnage” that I have hoped for all these years”? I have no idea why you think this is something I designed. Because I voted for Trump, perhaps? You do realize the racial strife increased greatly during Obama’s presidency, don’t you. He egged it on.

          Have you ever read the Book of Revelation? That is the way I expect things to turn out. I don’t have much confidence in our ability to fix our society. We won’t leave each other in peace.

          Anyway, keep your guilt to yourself. I already have enough sins to repent. I don’t watch Netflix. Once we knew the mortality rate been hyped and only a few people were vulnerable, I opposed the economic shutdown. When flattening the curve became an eternal economic shutdown, I got fed up. I am disappointed because people who don’t know what they doing won’t let the rest of us make our own decisions.

          You have know idea what the shutdown is supposed to accomplish at this point. You also have no idea what those idiot riots are supposed to accomplish, but if Trump is against something you are for it.

          Episcopal bishop? The bishop of a blatantly Liberal Democrat denomination doesn’t like Trump? Is that not akin to a CNN journalist telling us what he or she thinks of Trump?

          I suppose that Democrats are disappointed the church did not burn down. Since the early presidents used it, they must see it as another monument to slavery.

          Anyway. You are trying to find some way to blame this on somebody besides Democrats, but almost every time some damn racist nonsense pops up, they are already running things.

          Stop and think. We still don’t know why that policeman killed Floyd, but we are supposed to happily presume racism. Why? It fits the media narrative. Therefore, we have bunches of people rioting nationwide over a murder because it might have been a racist act?

  3. Just wondering Tom, as a purported Federalist, in defiance of the state governors, does it bother you at all that the pompous bumbling fool that is our President has threatened to invoke the Insurrection Act to use the US Military against what is predominately a peaceful protest in support of what virtually everyone (including almost every Police Chief) agrees is a just cause?

    1. @tsalmon

      Peaceful looting and general mayhem? When everyone already agrees, why protest?

      Article IV, Section 4 Of The Constitution

      The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

  4. Here’s part of a skit comedian Cris Rock did on “bad apples” that I think at least Liz might appreciate:

    “Bad apple? That’s a lovely name for a murderer. That almost sounds nice. I’ve had a bad apple. It was tart, but it didn’t choke me out. Here’s the thing. Here’s the thing. I know being a cop is hard. I know that s&*t’s dangerous. I know it is, okay? But some jobs can’t have bad apples.

    “Some jobs, everybody gotta be good. Like … pilots. Ya know, American Airlines can’t be like, ‘Most of our pilots like to land. We just got a few bad apples that like to crash into mountains. Please bear with us.'”

      1. If you look up and watch the whole video, Cris basically says that too. Welcome to the revolution.

        1. It is expensive to train cops. Lawsuits are expensive too.
          A lot of the problems we have getting good police officers are similar to the reason we have trouble getting good political leadership. Who wants to take that job?
          I want them there, and I want them to be good at their jobs.
          But I would never want the job nor would I want my spouse to work as a police officer.

          I probably told the story of my spouse’s father before (airline pilot, engineer for NASA, realtor, police officer, computer software developer for apple). We still keep in contact with one of his friends, and it was a friend from the police force. Anyway, when he was away on a trip, Mike (my spouse) was jumping from chair to chair with his sister, fell, and cracked his head open. He was about 2 I think (can’t remember the story exact). Bled like a sieve, and there weren’t any cell phones back then so no way to call. His mom put a towel over his head and rushed to the ER.
          They sat at that ER a long time (Miami, inner city…really booked up). A cop came in who had been shot. They were going to take him right away and he looked at Mike ad his mom and said, “Take the little guy first”.
          Mike’s Dad (Guillermo Enrique) came home to an apartment with broken furniture and blood everywhere. He proceeded to call nearby hospitals to find his family. When they found him, he spoke to that police officer and that’s when he decided to join the Miami police force (as a pilot he had a lot of free time).
          Anyway….he left the police force after he was forced to save his partner’s life via welding a billy club as a mob of thugs advanced on him in a bar (inner city Miami). It shook him up, and he had a family and another better paying day job.
          There are a lot of good cops out there.
          I don’t envy the job they have to do.

          1. Liz,

            Sounds like an amazing person.

            Apologies if I have related this story before. When I was a cub reporter on the Natchez Democrat Newspaper in Natchez, MS a lifetime ago, I was assigned the police beat. I got to know all the detectives and hung out with them, often doing ride-alongs.

            One day a dispute broke out at a vet clinic in town between a white woman and a black man over who would empty the dog water bowls. She slapped him and he slapped her back. In tears, she called her husband who worked at the local paper mill. He jumped in his pickup truck where he had a 44 magnum revolver and went hunting to kill that “N word”. Meanwhile, to defuse the situation, the black worker was sent on an errand to the post office.

            After the husband showed up waving the gun and left the clinic to go after the black worker, the police were called. The Natchez detective force had recently been integrated and two narcotics detectives, one black and one white were riding together in an unmarked cruiser when they heard the call on the radio. They saw the husband, who the white detective knew, and pulled him over. The white detective came around the driver side of the pickup and the black detective sidled up the passenger side. While the white detective talked to the husband, the black detective saw the gun on the seat and attempted to confiscate it. Seeing a black hand come through his window, the husband reached for the gun first and shot the black detective in the shoulder crumpling him to the ground where he proceeded to ineffectively return fire. Meanwhile, the white detective unloaded his police revolver into the husband’s chest.

            The husband, already dying of a flush wound in his lungs gunned his engine, went 20 feet to impact a telephone pole, got out of this truck, fatally shot the white detective in the head, and then he fell to the ground and where he died at the scene. I knew both detectives well and considered them friends.

            You could say that this whole tragedy happened over a dispute over who would fill dog water bowls, but we both know that it was sparked by systemic institutional racial animosities, prejudices and injustices that go back centuries and continue unresolved to this day. Trying to pretend they don’t exist or the current situation was one bad cop, just as pretending my story was about just one bigoted white man,, doesn’t make the underlying and quite obvious inequities of our society simply go away. That cop, aided by three other cops, held his knee to a black man’s neck for almost nine minutes, choking the life out of him while he and bystanders repeatedly begged them for mercy. The reasons why they thought that was ok are not just a one off.

            We have to at least acknowledge such injustice and such prejudices, especially in ourselves, before we can set about the hard work and compromises that it takes to begin to remedy them. This seems obvious to tens of thousands of peaceful protesters, my daughter amongst them, who braved the pandemic donned masks to come out in their masks and cry out in unison “enough is enough”. Meanwhile your moral cretin of a President sows division and hatred because that is all he knows how to do.

          2. @tsalmon

            I was raised like you. Does racism exist? Yes. However, I have discovered that people are all too willing to think ill of others, to separate people into us and them for any number of reasons. That’s why we have identity politics. Some politicians see the opportunities to divide and conquer as endless.

            Why did Derek Chauvin kill George Floyd? We don’t know yet.

          3. That is a terrible story, and I am sorry for your friends.
            I am curious if the impression would have been different if it were a white man and white woman fighting over dog bowls. Would he have turned into a sexist bastard who hit a woman because she wouldn’t dump dog dishes and he didn’t want to?

            I could link to the studies if needed, but it is a fact black law enforcement are more likely to shoot a black suspect than white law enforcement officers.
            So I must disagree with your premise they “thought this was okay”.
            See my post about training and why it is necessary.
            People often do not do, under pressure, what they think they would do.
            I doubt those cops who shot the man in the subway, after pepper spraying his eyes (warmoewp’s reaction to this video seems a little callous), would have thought this would be their reaction if asked on any given day.

            I also disagree that these protests are peaceful. You might be factually accurate when you say most of the protestors have peaceful intent.
            But portions of cities look like Mosul. See what you said about “a few bad apples” and it applies to this situation as well. And there are a LOT of bands of thugs looting and burning property.

          4. Tom, Liz,

            I think you misunderstand me and what is going on right now if you think it is all about overt racism, or the pandemic, or the moral microbe you have for your leader, or any one thing.

            MLK’s movement too was blamed for the violence that he never advocated, but understood. He knew the accusations were just a deflection that entrenched interests used to try to escape the moral change that had to come, and still must come, must always be coming.

            Anyway. Doesn’t matter what you think. Doesn’t matter what I think. It is what it is, and you can put your head in the sand and pretend it’s all one thing and it’s all black and white, cops and robbers, good guys and bad guys. Sorry, it’s just not that easy.

            Things are going to change though. Look at those crowds. Look at the diversity. I watched an old white lady pushing her walker to face off against the police line. Change is coming and it will blow over us like a whirl wind, no matter what team we think we are on, what tribe we think will protect us. If you want a moral urchin, a con man, a facade of a real man to lead you through this, then the mores the pity for you. I love you no less for the moral vacuousness of the pathetic man you choose to support. What’s amazing is that you think that you earn any moral suasion with Trump, a con man whose whole life is in wallowing in every kind of vice, leading you. Ah well, it won’t matter in the end.

          5. @tsalmon

            So, it is not about George Floyd. It is about Trump. TDS.

            Why is it about Trump? Because it is about Trump?😕

            This is why I finally stopped debating Doug about Trump. His arguments were nothing more than badgering. All he could do is say nasty things about Trump. He could not defend anything he said, and he did not try. He just enumerated more accusations. That is the way a troll argues.

            Whereas trolls, however, are just trying to needle their victims until they are angry, you are trying to punish me for supporting your sworn enemy. TDS. You can keep it. I don’t want it.😷

            We all need to pray before we vote. That includes asking God for the grace to behave appropriately if the other guy wins.

          6. MLK’s movement too was blamed for the violence that he never advocated, but understood.

            As I recall (not that I knew him, but from reading) MLK was in a position to start a race war, and he didn’t…he never ceded the moral high ground, and that is why he accomplished so much. Bus boycotts worked. Even before social media.
            We need another MLK. But outliers like that don’t come along often.

          7. @Liz

            We have got Trump. He is not MLK, but thus far he has been the right man for the occasion. Therefore, let us pray our Lord will give him the strength and wisdom he need. Also, let us pray our Lord will give us the strength and wisdom we need. Trump is only one man. Even the best leaders need followers.

          8. Change is coming and it will blow over us like a whirl wind, no matter what team we think we are on, what tribe we think will protect us.

            Please elaborate on this.

          9. @Liz

            That’s funny! Tsalmon can say all he wants about the peaceful demonstrations. No one has proposed to stop them anyway, but plenty of people have tacitly admitted the rioting is a problem.

          10. Tom,

            Obviously, you didn’t read what I wrote. Nope, not about Trump. He’s just the incompetent, morally deranged symptom of our bigger problems. However, having to live in the deepest moral pit of the swamp with Trump as your leader does make it impossible for you and other Republicans to ever find the moral high ground on virtually anything. His life is one of promoting and conning his marks to buy virtually every vice and scam – he’s proud that he is driven by greed and gluttony – he boasts on it. You want examples of Trump’s moral depravity, I can go on for hours with indisputable examples of his cons and lies by the thousands.

            I don’t blame you for giving up on defending him. In any moral argument, all I have to say is that Trump is the leader of your moral cause, and the discussion is done. You lose every time. It’s not trolling (which is Trump’s only talent – it’s why you love him); it’s just the reality in which you live. Feel sorry for you brother.😊

          11. @tsalmon

            You don’t make sense. You support aimless protests for the sake of change you can’t define.

            You hate Trump and make endless accusations.

            Meanwhile, you are all about love, you want government to force your idea of love down everyone’s throats.

            Sad thing is you really are smart and you really do care, but we are not wise. The wisdom of man is not worth anything.

          12. Liz,

            Some drivers are reckless drivers therefore everyone should give up the freedom to drive? A fallacious notion don’t you think? Let’s take it a step further. Some people abuse there free speech by spouting nonsense Trumpisms therefore we should not allow free speech? 😏

            One thing that I agree with you about, however, is that demonstrations have become almost shambolic. Since MLK, we have given peaceful demonstration an almost ritualistic nostalgia that is more like a mythological re-enactment of the struggle, but absent the actual struggle part.

            I was very young at the time of King’s death, but it is hard to imagine the courage it must have taken to passively face police dogs, fire hoses, beatings and sometimes bullets just to have your most basic rights as a human, much less a citizen, recognized. In the MLK side of the movement, they actually trained and planned to passively sacrifice themselves into the maw of the brutality until Americans, who like today only cloaked themselves as Christians, actually saw Christ crucified again in the suffering of each protester. I can only imagine that kind of courage.

            Right now protest is more of a game than a real revolution with the resolve for love inspired actual personal sacrifice on the one side and the willingness to inflict hate filled cruelty to maintain power on the other, but that could change.

            The game right now is mostly postering and pandering to natural political sentiments. One side is pretending to be like Rosa Parks but they are really more like those hippy dippy flower children of the 60’s. The other side must pretend to be the only ones who want law and order, but it is obvious to everyone that the the mostly Democratic cities don’t want lawlessness and chaos in their own backyard. The idea that Republicans are going to come in from their strongholds in the outlands and burbs to save those silly citifolk in the economic engines of the country from themselves is perhaps the most laughable part of this theater of the absurd. It’s all just a game until Trump goes too far and then it isn’t anymore.

            We are in the midst of a Pandemic that is still killing people in big numbers daily. That has caused another Great Depression that has highlighted the inequalities of a society. We have been distracted from those inequities with the new bread and circuses of unhealthy food and reality TV before this point. Tensions are at a flash point and the only instinct of an amoral President desperate to maintain power isn’t empathy or unity, but instead hatred and division. Trump’s gonna go, even if he is kicking and screaming. The only question is how long Trump’s base’s hatred of their fellow Americans, those dastardly libs, will overcome their sense of common decency. We’ll see – may take some actual pain at some point, rather than just playacting at the real sacrifice of revolution and the real cruelty counterrevolution. 🙂

          13. @tsalmon

            Where have Liz or I proposed to stop peaceful demonstrations? You can’t tell the difference between a peaceful protest and a riot?

            Fact is you don’t know the purpose of the demonstrations or the riots. The stuff about circuses, unhealthy food and TV is silly. You are babbling the hide the fact you cannot explain your position. And attacking Trump, of course. Anything to attack Trump. That, of course, is the agenda.

            The demonstrations — and riots — are being held in blue cities usually within blue states. These are the places that refuse to end the economic shut down. If there is systemic racial discrimination in local police forces, Democrats are responsible. Democrats run these cities, often with a black political establishment. Look at DC, for example.

            Trying to blame Trump for a problems Democrats created or aggravated is nonsense. If Democrat leaders want to end the riots, they certainly have the power to do so. New York and DC don’t have big enough police forces? Seriously? What these Democrat mayors clearly lack is the will, or Federal force would not have been suggested.

            Governors and mayors have the duty to protect the rights of their citizens, including their rights life and property (see When governors fail to do their job, the citizens of the affected state lose their guarantee to a Republican Form of Government (see Article IV, Section 4 of the Constitution). Then the president has the duty to step in. As the head of the Federal Government he must act to guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government.

            Go back and look at Germany before Hitler took over. The Nazis created havoc. Essentially, they bullied their way into power.

            You say I am playing the Hitler card so I loose? Bullshit! Look at the crap the Democrats stand for.
            — abortion/eugenics
            — indoctrination of the youth in the public schools
            — the LGBTQ agenda
            — socialism
            — restricting “hate speech”
            — churches are not essential
            — laws for thee, but not for me
            — scrapping one man one vote, virtually annulling election security
            — ignoring the Constitution

            The Democratic Party has fixated on racism since our nation’s founding. With identity politics, that party has only gotten worse. Powerful people want more power and more wealth. So they are using the news media to propagandize us and powerful positions in government to destabilize the Trump administration. There is no question the Russian collusion nonsense was perpetrated by the Democrats. Makes anything Nixon did look harmless.

          14. Some drivers are reckless drivers therefore everyone should give up the freedom to drive?

            If the roads were littered with fiery wrecks as thousands of drivers purposefully played bumper cars and it wasn’t safe to drive anymore, there is no freedom to drive.
            I think you know this.
            Right now protest is more of a game than a real revolution with the resolve for love inspired actual personal sacrifice on the one side and the willingness to inflict hate filled cruelty to maintain power on the other, but that could change.

            Perhaps you could identify the people who think the cop acted correctly here. The Chief of Police of Milwaukee is black.

            The other side must pretend to be the only ones who want law and order, but it is obvious to everyone that the the mostly Democratic cities don’t want lawlessness and chaos in their own backyard.

            Of course they don’t want it in their own back yard. What are they doing about it, other than fanning the flames?

          15. I would bet a good bit of money the cop who did this did not wake up that morning and think, “today I am going to kill a man by stepping on his neck”.
            I’m sure the other cops watching didn’t wake up thinking, “heh, today I’m going to watch and do nothing while that happens”
            There’s a psychology for how things like this happen, which is why training is important. If there is a culture of police brutality and people are afraid to speak up, that’s a problem. What’s the Chief of Police’s roll in this? Has anyone even mentioned the person to the top? Is it because the people holding the leadership positions don’t fit the narrative? And the folks doing the looting and violence don’t want to solve it because it goes against their interests?
            I think so.

            Side note: In one picture the Chief looked black but he is actually hispanic.
            Assistant Chief of the Patrol Bureau is black.
            Here is a link to their organization and command/staff:

          16. BTW, I’ve read gun sales are up 80 percent and 40 percent of those are first time buyers. Mike flew with a pilot from Memphis last night and he just bought his first gun ever (he is 57 years old).
            That word, “peaceful”….I do not think it means what you think it means.

          17. @Liz

            When Liberal Democrats use the words “love” and “peace”, it seems that they think you have to love and obey them in order to have peace. That appears to be a rather common bit confusion among human beings, unfortunately.

          18. These people were not calling for sweeping law enforcement reforms last month
            These same people who were maintaining the FBI should be free to do whatever they want. I’m having trouble figuring out their platform.
            Give me some measurable goals, TSalmon.
            What does this new “better” world look like in the form of some measurable goal?

          19. You propose holding governors accountable for bad policing in their cities and the riots that have resulted? I‘m with you. You and Liz are the ones who have taken on the job of being the apologist for the failures of certain politicians, not me. However, your calls for accountability are morally relative and logically inconsistent. 100,000 Americans are dead from a predictable pandemic and daily the numbers mount. We are in the midst of the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. Our foreign policy is in shambles and because our historic allies won’t have anything to do with Trump while they anxiously anticipate his loss in November, Trump is forced to chat repeatedly with Putin and other tin pot dictators. The nation is on fire with anger, frustration and grief so The Great Divider attacks peaceful demonstrators (who just minutes earlier he said he was a friend to) for a photo op where he mocks the Bible and desecrates a church. Meanwhile, all these things have happened on Trump’s watch over the last three years and two and a half branches of the federal government are run by Republicans, but they are of course, never accountable.

            This failure to be accountable is not surprising I suppose. Trump is a moral black hole and you’re obviously stuck in the corrupt gravity of that event horizon. As long as he is your leadership, you can’t have any moral credibility, just a lot of desparation and blame shifting. Sad.

          20. @tsalmon

            Effectively, every time you are asked to explain your own position, you just change the subject by attacking Trump. So what?

          21. You propose holding governors accountable for bad policing in their cities and the riots that have resulted? I‘m with you.
            I’m actually suggesting some changes in policy. Training for example and an investigation in the leadership of the police department. If it’s a leadership failure…which, by looking not at what the LEO did but the fact everyone stood around watching…that’s probably a leadership problem as well as a training problem. But I said this already. Might also be an accountability problem if there has been a pattern of this sort of behavior. I’m guessing they have a union. I don’t think security forces of any type should have unions.

            You and Liz are the ones who have taken on the job of being the apologist for the failures of certain politicians, not me.
            Well, before the plague hit we had a record-level economy. Record low unemployment for hispanics and blacks and more running businesses than pretty much any time in history. Approval rating for Trump from the hispanic and black communities was very very high for a Republican. That is not a record of failure.

            However, your calls for accountability are morally relative and logically inconsistent. 100,000 Americans are dead from a predictable pandemic and daily the numbers mount.
            He’s responsible for dead people in a pandemic. Even though the mayor of the city with over 1/3 of those deaths violated his orders and kept everything open an additional two weeks. Even though he shut down travel before the CDC or WHO recommended it. He took advice from all the experts except when he was even more conservative….yet you blame him for the deaths. That is not logically consistent nor is it reasonable. But neither is the demonization of a potential therapy because Trump suggested it might work. There’s simply no rational thought in this process it’s all “WWTD?” and then scream about it and demand the opposite. No matter how many times folks are wrong (and I’ve stopped counting) they just turn to the next “fresh outrage” and forget what they were complaining about the day before.
            Remember the pink hats. What were they protesting? Oh, they didn’t want Trump to throw women into concentration camps. Or something. Mission accomplished, lardy ladies.

            We are in the midst of the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.
            We are. And folks are burning and looting businesses that were barely getting by. But of course that’s all Trump’s fault too.
            Nothing irrational there.

            The nation is on fire with anger, frustration and grief so The Great Divider attacks peaceful demonstrators (who just minutes earlier he said he was a friend to) for a photo op where he mocks the Bible and desecrates a church.
            Desecrates a church.
You do know this was a 200 year old church that had just been torched by “protestors”. Hard to “desecrate” it more than that. What did he do, reach in his backside, pull out some scat and throw it?
            Do you notice I am attempting to address what you post, and answer your questions but you aren’t answering any of mine. You just keep repeating the same things.

          22. @Liz

            You got more patience than I do at this point.

            Do you notice I am attempting to address what you post, and answer your questions but you aren’t answering any of mine. You just keep repeating the same things.

            Funny thing is that I think he has convinced himself that has has answered our questions, but I have no idea how he convinced himself of that.

            I would like to believe we live in very strange times, but we don’t. We have an amazing capacity to believe what we want to believe. And lots of people want to believe they are entitled.

          23. Tom,

            I’m a citizen and a voter, not a politician or a party leader. Trump works for me and every other American citizen. As a military officer, I was accountable to my chain of command under the Constitution. The American people did not have to have an opinion about how to collect intel or track and attack submarines in order to expect me to be held accountable for corruption or incompetence in at my assigned duties. Such moral and practical accountability is the essence of leadership. As a former military officer, you should know that. This is why I am continuously baffled at your insistence on following a leader who Is a blatant (even unabashed) moral vacuum and an obvious incompetent. I did not have to have a political ideology to be an effective leader and to hold members of my command and crew accountable. (In fact, a political ideology was a detriment). Politically, it should not matter what I think in order to hold the POTUS accountable for his immoral actions and his incompetence. In fact, excusing a leader’s immorality and his incompetence for the sake of partisan loyalty would show that my priorities before my God, my country and my fellow humans are messed up. Is that really so hard to understand?

          24. @tsalmon

            You can’t point to someone better than Trump. You just complain, and most of what you say is nonsense. Liz and I ask you straightforward questions. You don’t answer. You just attack Trump. Just a continuous stream of name calling.

            What makes you better than Trump? Your inexplicable and indefensible political morality is better? It is not. You just repeat what a bunch of liars have told you, and you know they are liars. Otherwise, you would stop the name calling and move onto fact.

          25. Tom,

            “You can’t point to someone better than Trump. You just complain, and most of what you say is nonsense. “

            What an absurd concept. I find it hard to imagine who would not be better than Trump.

            “What makes you better than Trump?”

            So you thought you were better than Obama when you constantly attacked him and called him names? Anyway, I hope we have a standard for president that is better than me. Certainly we can do better than a corrupt and incompetent conman.

            “You just repeat what a bunch of liars have told you, and you know they are liars. Otherwise, you would stop the name calling and move onto fact.”

            I follow liars? How laughable! How many whoppers has Trump told now? I think the count is into the tens of thousands and accelerating as he turns from one fabrication, blame shifting, deflection or conspiracy theory after another as he sees his presidency collapse into a pile of steaming poop. The facts are staring you in the face, but you choose to believe the guy who has spent his whole life selling snake oil to rubes. 100,000 and counting of your fellow citizens are dead. Even Italy has a better record than Trump’s – we have to look to failed states and Trump clones to find worse examples than what we are going through. We are in the worse economic collapse since the Great Depression and Trump just dithers, divides and puffs himself up with a cowardly and senselessly violent photo op where he mocks the Bible and desecrates a church. We don’t even have a foreign policy anymore – just more failed photo ops. Our usual allies are openly scorning Trump and Trump’s buddies, the tin pot dictators just laugh at and use Trump as a silly autocrat wannabe. Did you know that the bailout of the big agribusiness companies is much bigger now than Obama’s successful automakers bailout – apparently you love welfare states as long as they are of the crony capitalist, corporate welfare variety. Let’s not forget that tens, if not hundreds of thousands, of your fellow citizens of all races and ages have taken to the streets daily in a groundswell of anger, sadness and frustration, so what does your fearless Cadet Bone spur do? Does he show empathy and seek calming unity of his citizens like any decent Republican or Democrat President? No, Trump crawls out of his bunker and sadly abuses our military to deprive peaceful protesters of their constitutional rights. Why? For a stupid reality TV stunt, another scam, a senselessly staged imbecilic show to make our Cadet Bone Spur look marshal when he’s really just a scared little narcissist pretending to be a man.

            You want more facts. We can go on forever. It’s not like Trump’s failures in competence are not legion and growing daily. It’s really harder to find something he actually does right. 😆

          26. @tsalmon

            I did not personally attack or try to personally judge Obama. I disagreed with him, I explained why I disagreed. I also demonstrated when he was lying.

            The people who say Trump is a liar are liars. Easy enough to prove. Just find where they take something Trump said out of context. Happens all the time.

            Sometimes it is even sillier. Trump said voting by mail would lead to corruption, and that’s a lie?

            We just had a mess here in Maryland and DC with elections using voting by mail. The idiots just tried to command it to happen. Dumb!


            The rest of what you said is not worthy of specific responses. What you miss is too obvious. We are in the midst of a power struggle. Liberal Democrats are in a cold war with Trump and his supporters. In the face of such opposition, expecting Trump to govern smoothly is stupid. The blue states and cities are effectively destroying themselves and blaming Trump. The weird thing is you blame Trump when you should know better. How do you do that?

            Anyway, all you are doing is demanding that we give in. That’s not a logical argument. It is just a bunch of name calling, and I see no reason to give in. I don’t want to be a serf, and I most certainly don’t want my children and grandchildren to be serfs.

          27. Give in? You are in thrall to a conman. Why would I expect that? It would take the kind of deprograming that they used to reserve for teenagers who became cult followers. I don’t have enough time left for that. 😏

  5. Well said.
    You’d think the country could at least agree that looting, burning, violent protest is a bad thing.
    But not so.

    In Chicago, just a couple of months ago, this happened :…line-station%2F

    I don’t remember folks raising the cities to the ground over it. Perhaps folks here haven’t even see it, or heard of the incident (I only did because our boys mentioned it at the time)

        1. I think the video has been taken down now.
          Appears that they sprayed him with pepper spray in the eyes before gunning him down.
          Looks to me like the LEOs have not been trained on how to safely restrain a person (similar to what happened in Minnesota).
          At our last base, the MPs did not seem to have this training either.
          The installation paid for training (BJJ, Brazilian Ju Jitsu) out of discretionary funding money. They could only afford to train 20 of them, I think….but better than nothing.

          1. @Liz

            The headache with trying to restrain someone physically is that it is basically hand-to-hand combat. There is only so much training can do for us. A big guy has the advantage. Mace, tasers, and other such non-lethal weapons can help, but if someone is resisting arrest, I have a difficult time blaming the police if they get scared and start shooting. That is why they have guns.

            I have not bothered looking at the video, but the problem with the killing in Minneapolis seems to be the apparent fact that the cop was not having any trouble controlling the guy he killed. Still, he could have been afraid of taking his knee off of that guy’s neck. Don’t know.

          2. That’s true.
            They can’t all be this guy (former Special Forces):

            Pretty epic…
            He disarms several rioters holding AR-15s in Seattle.
            They’d taken the weapons out of police vehicles.
            Which leads to the natural question:
            Who is leaving weapons in abandoned police vehicles?
            That’s a major tactical error and needs to be investigated.

            I didn’t watch the video of the LEO in Minnesota either.
            I saw the still photo.
            He (the LEO) was pretty thin.

          3. @Liz

            Most of us don’t have the capacity to act so quickly and decisively. The boy lost control of that weapon before he knew what had happened.

          4. Liz,

            Essentially the summation of your Trump apologetics is “Look how well the growing economy and the ship of state that Trump inherited from Obama was sailing, before Trump crashed it on the rocks”. Even if the commander meets unexpected problems, if a Navy captain, through his obvious moral depravity, divisiveness and incompetence, runs an aircraft carrier aground, we don’t applaud him/her for just not screwing things up that bad before the shipwreck.

            When Trump violently cleared his citizen constituents away so that he could use their church as a backdrop for a, at best awkward, at worst highly divisive, photo op statement, the clergy and parishioners on the church patio felt their house of worship was desecrated by Trump, as did their Episcopalian leadership, but I guess their opinion doesn’t matter?

            As to your questions, within the limited scope of my actual knowledge and actual responsibilities as just a citizen voter, I try to give my relevant opinions. However, unlike you and Tom, I don’t claim to know enough about everything that I am not responsible for so as to emote my opinion on virtually everything.

            Also, you sometimes throw out whataboutisms that seek to present complex motivations into easy warring camps. For example, I can absolutely admire and support the sacrifices and even heroism of police officers while also acknowledging that there is often institutional and individual bigotry that they need to be accountable for and that should be systemically reformed. Despite our divisive President’s attempts to make it into cops and ribbers, these things are complex, interlocking and not simply mutually exclusive. I also realize that these endemic problems don’t exist outside the context of generations impoverished and crime ridden neighborhoods, an industrialized incarceration system that financially incentivizes minority imprisonments, along with a host of other continuing vestiges from this nation’s original sin. To paraphrase someone, I can’t remember who, that history isn’t over yet, it’s not even history.

            I was an ALPA union leader and pilot advocate, but I also knew that ALPA’s first priority was safety and therefore I had no problem working to weed out corrupt or dangerous pilots. Likewise, I think you’d agree that police officers are not really protecting their profession when unions constantly shield sadists like the one who murdered George Floyd with the thin blue line.

            You and Tom seem to want some plan or scheme or prediction from me that justifies everything that is happening in the Republican opposition right now. I’ve tried to explain that, on the Republican side, Trump’s impulse toward divisiveness in a time of crisis reflects his desperation at being over his head and lacking in the moral and competency tools to unite the country. Any other half way decent political leader from either party would have ridden these various disasters to an easily unifying reelection victory. Trump is simple unfit for that job. On the left, a combination of frustration, anger and anguish with many contributing moral and economic factors that have been amplified by the pandemic and then ignited by the murder of George Floyd has created a grass roots ground swell of undirected and unorganized collective emotion in the streets. I don’t know where it’s going, but it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that change is acomin. And if nothing else, that change will be to throw Trump out kicking and screaming in November. Other than that, let me just associate myself with the statement released by General Mattis. He encapsulates the thoughts of many of us ex military men and women who find Trump’s complete lack of moral leadership appalling and not in keeping with the best traditions of our democracy.

            Finally, the only argument that my good brother wants to have is collectivism verses individualism, and he attempts to paint me as some rabid Bolshevik revolutionary. This despite the fact that most of my working life and what little financial success I have been blessed with was spent competing in the market while Tom essentially spent his life suckling off the government teet. I’m not saying that that is a bad thing. I admire Tom’s public service. Tom is smart enough to have made a lot more money in the private sector, but he obviously enjoys being of service. You can see the irony though, can’t you? Besides, virtually no one wants to actually live in a totalitarian collectivist state anymore than there is some huge number of Americans craving for the individualist anarchy of a failed state ruled by warlords. Mostly, we are just trying to find some practical compromise that works and also fits our unique American ethos of rugged individualism and community spirit. With the nation and the world shrinking, this is a constantly moving and evolving target. However, pretending that it’s the either/or Utopias of only Ayn Rand or Karl Marx is just fighting a war over territory that no longer actually exists. It’s a dumb argument and I don’t care to be the foil for either idiocy.

            You’re incredibly smart and one of the most reasonable persons here. I enjoy your comments and agree with many of them even when I don’t respond, and I can’t seem to get my “like” function to work. I hope this satisfies your apparent frustrations with a perceived lack of responsiveness on my part.
            Perhaps that was even too much responsiveness. 😉

          5. @tsalmon

            Paragraph #1: Attack Trump for his ALLEGED incompetence. As compared to a Democrat? 😂

            Paragraph #2: Based upon a lie. See

            Paragraph #3: If you don’t know anything, why are you calling Trump names?

            Paragraph #4: The fact that the riots are occurring in areas run by Democrats is a whataboutism? All you do when you call Trump names is string together a bunch of whataboutisms. Trump ran on a platform. His opponent ran on a platform, but you cannot support H. Clinton’s platform. All you can do is bullshit.

            Paragraph #5: So you are wonderful. We have bad apples in every profession. We don’t even know why that bad cop killed Floyd, but the bigoted news media assumes institutionalized, systemic racism. Yet the state and city are run be Democrats? Then why blame the police everywhere?

            Paragraph #6:

            You and Tom seem to want some plan or scheme or prediction from me that justifies everything that is happening in the Republican opposition right now.

            The people you vote for all have plans to take our money and spend it for us. You don’t know their plans, but you damn us for voting for Trump by enumerating long strings of whataboutism?

            Paragraph #7: You vote for collectivists, people making Utopian promises with other people’s wealth, and you cannot explain how much collectivism is too much. You won’t even defend the plains words of the Constitution, and you use a few cherrypicked words in the Bible to justify redistributing the wealth. So, if I decide you must be a collectivist, I am being unreasonable?

          6. TSalmon, first, thank you for the considered response.

            Essentially the summation of your Trump apologetics is “Look how well the growing economy and the ship of state that Trump inherited from Obama was sailing, before Trump crashed it on the rocks”.

            Through the last couple of years I’ve cited a long list of accomplishments. Those haven’t changed.
            At present I’m just sticking to the short list because the long one would be a waste of time and not hit the main point.
            The point is: what is the point of the protests/looting?
            If it is racial dis-enfranchisement/inequality there should be some real world examples. The police force is highly diverse.
            Before the economy went south things were great for minorities economically.
            Trump has also instituted prison reforms
            From his EO:
            To further improve public safety, we should aim not only to prevent crime in the first place, but also to provide those who have engaged in criminal activity with greater opportunities to lead productive lives.  The Federal Government can assist in breaking this cycle of crime through a comprehensive strategy that addresses a range of issues, including mental health, vocational training, job creation, after-school programming, substance abuse, and mentoring.  Incarceration is necessary to improve public safety, but its effectiveness can be enhanced through evidence-based rehabilitation programs.  These efforts will lower recidivism rates, ease incarcerated individuals’ reentry into the community, reduce future incarceration costs, and promote positive social and economic outcomes.
            Are the mobs after justice?
            No one is backing police brutality or unequal representation under the law (except for the folks who seem to want to skip the trial for the LEOs here).
            What can be done right now that will make protesters/rioters/looters declare victory and go home?
            But then you’ve answered that in your post just now.
            There is no direction. They’re just angry. And destructive.
            Likewise, I think you’d agree that police officers are not really protecting their profession when unions constantly shield sadists like the one who murdered George Floyd with the thin blue line.
            Yes, that’s why I also mentioned unions.

            Thank you for the response.
            I did read Mattis’ comments. I like him, but a little less today than yesterday. I do not think his criticism is helpful, but as a private citizen it is his right. Not all of his opinions are correct. He was wrong about Theranos. He was wrong about Syria.
            I would prefer the president tweet less and agree using words like “dominate” probably aren’t the most helpful choice of phrases.

          7. @Liz

            Not much choice with rioters. Don’t confuse them with peaceful protesters. Peaceful they ain’t. Rioters are not thinking. They have to be dominated, frightened or physically restrained.

          8. Not much choice with rioters. Don’t confuse them with peaceful protesters. Peaceful they ain’t. Rioters are not thinking. They have to be dominated, frightened or physically restrained.

            Yes, I agree. There isn’t much reasoning with a mob, and not protected the public, and their property, isn’t an option in a functioning society.
            Per “words” It depends on the outcome.
            If the statement “we will dominate” stops violence before it happens it was well spoken. If the statement stirs up more violence it was badly spoken.
            I suspect if looters believe there will be response they will be less inclined to hurt people and break things.

          9. @Liz

            Think again about the audience for Trump’s comment. To some extent it was for public consumption, but Trump does not want to send in the troops. He is trying to encourage the governors and the mayor.

          10. Just to add: Unfortunately, since there is no ‘reset’ button we will never know if empty virtue signaling political statements would have been better than stern ones.
            We only know what is, not what would have been. If there is not one additional death, the Democrats will say the mobs were calming down anyway. If there is one more, they will all say Trump killed that person just like he killed 100,000 with the corona.

    1. Hmm, Ariel Roman survived the shooting, there was an investigation from the get go, the officers are under investigation. How is this comparable to a man not resisting his arrest being killed, with three officers standing idly by while bystanders implore them to mind the condition of the victim. No investigation was started into what I would consider manslaughter at a minimum. Yeah, totally the same.

      1. @marmoewp

        The policeman who killed Floyd was stupidly brutal, but he was probably surprised that he killed anyone. Nevertheless, the president, the governor, and the mayor all expressed grave concern over Floyd’s death, the mayor fired the four policemen involved, and everyone started investigations. Then the riots started even though it is obvious those four cops are in hot water. Yet two black cops on video shooting a white guy gets indifferent treatment. As a supposedly white supremacist deplorable, I think the disparity a bit odd. We are still supposed to have a system that oppressed blacks in this country.

        I am relieved my neighbors have not used a lame excuse to trash, loot, and burn our neighborhood. That is not to say it could not happen. There is supposed to be a protest in a nearby shopping center. I pray no one shows up.

      2. Two things are rarely “totally the same”. But they are similar.
        One incident happened in Chicago and one in Minnesota.
        Different jurisdictions handle things differently.
        I find it very very difficult to believe there has been no investigation of the Floyd incident. Are you certain? That sounds highly highly unlikely.
        I suspect (not to put words in your mouth, but trying to make sense of your statemenT) you mean they didn’t arrest the policeman right away.
        That is the way things are typically handled….investigation comes first.
        Whatever way they typically handle police investigations in that jurisdiction should be exactly the way they handle this one.
        Because doing things differently in response to a violent mob sets a very dangerous precedent.

      1. @marmoewp

        Interesting, and yes it was worth watching.

        Just a couple of observations.
        1. I don’t believe the social contract theory is really correct. We don’t think that way. People are held together as a society because of the values the share. When we look upon another human being, if we see someone like us, someone with whom we have empathy, then we are more likely to treat them as we want to be treated. Identity politics is designed to undermine such empathy.

        2. In America blacks tend to congregate in the urban centers and often dominate them. Washington DC, for example, is largely populated by blacks. Effectively, the people blacks elected control the police forces that blacks complain about, and it has been that way for decades. Therefore, I am afraid blacks need to admit voting a straight Democratic Party ticket is not working for them.

        School vouchers or education vouchers tends to be more popular with blacks. Intercity schools stink.

      2. I will try to listen to this when I’m in the car later today or tomorrow.
        Our internet is too sketchy to watch a video this long at the house, but I can usually get better reception elsewhere.

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