THE HEAVENS REVEAL THE GLORY OF GOD

vibrant night sky with lots of stars, beside a tree’s silhouette (from here)

This is a spinoff post. Spinning off what? On a clear day by ColorStorm. Citing Romans 1:20, ‘s thesis is that God is clearly seen, that we have no excuse for not knowing the truth of His existence.

Here is Romans 1:20 (the translation used).

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Seems simple enough. Still, got this comment.

sklyjd says:
March 12, 2020 at 11:23 pm

“while we ignore the only proof we need, and that is what our eyes and heart tell us.”

This is pure passion with an overwhelming human emotional condition of the mind CS. You are therefore restricted within this state of false consciousness and the supernatural myths.

provides a good illustration of the problem. What problem? The problem we have understanding the Bible. We don’t actually want to understand the Bible.

Here is how John Wesley described that verse in his Notes on the Bible.

For those things of him which are invisible, are seen – By the eye of the mind. Being understood – They are seen by them, and them only, who use their understanding. (from here (wesley.nnu.edu))

Where did err? Whenever we read the Bible, we need to consider the context.

  • What is the purpose of a verse with respect to passage that contains it?
  • When and where was the verse written? Who did the author expect to read it?
  • How does that verse relate to the rest of the Bible?

Using a more modern translation (to ensure clarity), here is that verse in its immediate context.

Romans 1:18-23 Good News Translation (GNT)

18 God’s anger is revealed from heaven against all the sin and evil of the people whose evil ways prevent the truth from being known. 19 God punishes them, because what can be known about God is plain to them, for God himself made it plain. 20 Ever since God created the world, his invisible qualities, both his eternal power and his divine nature, have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things that God has made. So those people have no excuse at all! 21 They know God, but they do not give him the honor that belongs to him, nor do they thank him. Instead, their thoughts have become complete nonsense, and their empty minds are filled with darkness. 22 They say they are wise, but they are fools; 23 instead of worshiping the immortal God, they worship images made to look like mortals or birds or animals or reptiles.

Taken altogether, verses 18-20 are emphatic! God is angry with us because the truth of His existence is undeniable. He knows that our problem is that we don’t want to know the truth, not that we cannot know the truth.

Verses 21-23 explain what happens to us when we deny the existence of God and refuse to give our Maker our worship. Instead of worshipping our Maker, we make gods of our own desires. Carried to the extreme, we worship other human beings or ourselves.

When the Apostle Paul wrote Romans, he wrote to Christians facing persecution from Pagans. These Pagans worshipped every kind of god they could and could not imagine, even an unknown god (Acts 17:23). Why worship such? Why not worship the God who made everything? Don’t the heavens declare his glory (Psalm 19:1)? Why we want to worship the puny gods of our imaginations instead?

Think! What does Creation reveal to us about our Creator? What does the Bible tell us about God?

John 1:1-5 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [a]He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [b]comprehend it.

Creation, because of its sheer beauty, complexity and infinite size, tells us our Maker is majestically all-powerful. The Bible makes it clear our Maker is also holy. Because of His infinite power and holiness, we have no control over God, none whatsoever. We are His, and He can dispose of us as He sees fit. We are at our Maker’s mercy, and that is both frightening and offensive to our pride. None of us want to be, much less believe we are, at anyone’s mercy.

Hence, when we consider what God has revealed to us, we have a choice. We can humble ourselves and plead for our Lord’s mercy, or we can pretend He does exist. Why would God want anything to do with us? He is perfectly holy and all-powerful. We are just puny, pathetic sinners.

Fortunately, this choice is easier than we might at first believe. That is because God has demonstrated that He loves us.

John 3:16-18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [b]only begotten Son of God.

Because it is just a denial of the truth, pretending God does not exist is not an acceptable option. Nevertheless, humbling ourselves and repenting of our sins seems painful. Yet it is not. Because God made us and loves us, humbling ourselves, repenting of our sins, and worshiping our Maker is just doing what we were made to do.

53 thoughts on “THE HEAVENS REVEAL THE GLORY OF GOD

  1. since most, if not every, religion makes the same claim about being to see their particular god as creator of the universe, Christians need to show that it is their version of their god.

    if you can’t, then no reason to believe your claims over all of the theists you claim are wrong.

    “Because it is just a denial of the truth, pretending God does not exist is not an acceptable option. Nevertheless, humbling ourselves and repenting of our sins seems painful. Yet it is not. Because God made us and loves us, humbling ourselves, repenting of our sins, and worshiping our Maker is just doing what we were made to do.”

    no one has to pretend since there is no evidence of your god or it doing anything. And since Christians can’t agree on what sins this god cares about, no one needs to believe Christians when they try to put their hates and desires into the mouth of the god they invented in their own image.

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    1. @club

      since most, if not every, religion makes the same claim about being to see their particular god as creator of the universe, Christians need to show that it is their version of their god.

      Each religion makes distinctly different claims about the nature of God. Buddhist are essentially atheistic. Hindus believe in a trinity of greater gods and in all kinds of lesser gods. Jews believe in the God of the Old Testament, and Christians believe the God of the Old and New Testaments are one and the same. Muslims believe what Mohammed said about Allah.

      Nevertheless, although I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Romans 1:20 is focus of this post.

      or the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

      Romans 1:20 argues that an intelligent being with infinite powers made everything. Was that Being Brahma, Allah, or Yahweh? That discussion becomes relevant once we believe in God.

      Of course, I have considered proofs of Christian. You are welcome to look at them. See https://citizentom.com/2018/08/25/you-need-proof/. Nevertheless, proof of Gods existence is a separate problem from proof that Jesus died and rose from the dead.

      no one has to pretend since there is no evidence of your god or it doing anything. And since Christians can’t agree on what sins this god cares about, no one needs to believe Christians when they try to put their hates and desires into the mouth of the god they invented in their own image.

      That right? Then why do you care? Do I need proof you care? Why? I have your comment.

      Fact is that I have not attempted to put my words into God’s mouth, at least not deliberately. Since I can be foolish, I have misunderstood the Bible occasionally. Nevertheless, the Bible is God’s Word, not anything I say. Any Christian who attempts to speak for God instead of letting the Bible speak for Him will have some explaining to do on that Day we will all be judged..

      Liked by 1 person

      1. The Clubster sings a song with just one note. Her nursery school theology is impervious to data. She has been given an entire universe full of evidence. Her questions and arguments have been addressed patiently, and repeatedly. Yet here she is again, reciting her lines.

        “since most, if not every, religion makes the same claim about being to see their particular god as creator of the universe…” – Clubster

        Classic! She can’t seem to decide whether theists are all saying the same thing or all disagreeing about the origins of the universe. If she wasn’t blinded by rage, pride, and ignorance she might realize that all those religions agreeing that the universe was created by ‘something’ is evidence for the existence of that ‘something’. It is NOT a justification for atheism.

        Liked by 1 person

        1. @John

          Well, all religions don’t reach the same conclusion. Buddhists and the rest of the Atheists have trouble with the idea of a Creator. They seem to think “it just is” explains everything.

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        2. the “sophisticated theology” claim by JB is typical for Christians. They have to keep trying to make up more nonsense as apologetics.

          I’m quite happy to see that Christians are admitting in droves that their god can do nothing thanks to the coronavirus.

          Still no evidence ever presented by JB or Tom that shows that their version of their god exists or that it is the creator. All we have from them are baseless claims, many the same claims that they disbelief when used by other theists.

          All theists are making the same base claim “my god is the creator”. None can show it to be true so they end up doing nothing more than contradicting each other.

          JB does have a problem with reading comprehension. And this ” she might realize that all those religions agreeing that the universe was created by ‘something’ is evidence for the existence of that ‘something’. It is NOT a justification for atheism.” is nothing more than a argument from popularity fallacy.

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          1. Soooo Club-

            In your superior observations of a godless world, just what exactly DO the heavens declare if not the glory of God? Do tell if you are able.

            And WHERE also did the very word Heaven originate?

            Liked by 1 person

          2. Poor CS, you are a believer in a religion where either Christians are admitting their god is impotent and imaginary when it comes to a virus or they are lying and claiming that they can heal this virus or won’t get it in the first place, intentionally causing harm to others.

            I’m just sooo impressesd with you.

            The heavens show how neat physical laws are.

            CS, do show that the heavens only show the glory of your version of your god. You’ve made the claim, now you get to support that. This will include showing no other gods exist and that your god exists.

            heaven – History and Etymology for heaven
            Middle English heven, from Old English heofon; akin to Old High German himil heaven (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heaven) (and more info on the wiki page for “heaven” under its etymology. So we have so we have the term from the germanic So, CS, dear, do you worship Odin Allfather?

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          3. CS, among a lot of very ignorant and fearful Christians, you are one of the worst. Thanks for showing your incompetence.

            e modern English word heaven is derived from the earlier (Middle English) heven (attested 1159); this in turn was developed from the previous Old English form heofon. By about 1000, heofon was being used in reference to the Christianized “place where God dwells”, but originally, it had signified “sky, firmament”[2] (e.g. in Beowulf, c. 725). The English term has cognates in the other Germanic languages: Old Saxon heƀan “sky, heaven” (hence also Middle Low German heven “sky”), Old Icelandic himinn, Gothic himins; and those with a variant final -l: Old Frisian himel, himul “sky, heaven”, Old Saxon and Old High German himil, Old Saxon and Middle Low German hemmel, Old Dutch and Dutch hemel, and modern German Himmel. All of these have been derived from a reconstructed Proto-Germanic form *hemina-.[3] or *hemō.[4]
            The further derivation of this form is uncertain. A connection to Proto-Indo-European *ḱem- “cover, shroud”, via a reconstructed *k̑emen- or *k̑ōmen- “stone, heaven”, has been proposed.[5] Others endorse the derivation from a Proto-Indo-European root *h₂éḱmō “stone” and, possibly, “heavenly vault” at the origin of this word, which then would have as cognates Ancient Greek ἄκμων (ákmōn “anvil, pestle; meteorite”), Persian آسمان‎ (âsemân, âsmân “stone, sling-stone; sky, heaven”) and Sanskrit अश्मन् (aśman “stone, rock, sling-stone; thunderbolt; the firmament”).[4] In the latter case English hammer would be another cognate to the word. – wiki entry

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          4. Yep, the OT was indeed written in Hebrew.

            And our dear CS said this “And WHERE also did the very word Heaven originate?”

            As the facts I used indicate funny how “heaven” isn’t Hebrew at all, poor CS’s attempt to claim that using the word heaven was important and somehow came from your god is false.

            We can see in the same wiki article about “heaven” is that the Hebrew word for the idea of a realm above is šāmayim. they aren’t the same term nor even in the same linguistic family.

            Nice try to hide CS’s utter ignorance, but you’ve revealed your own. Many cultures have the same idea that the sky is somehow the realm of the gods. t’s nothing new or unique and no evidence for your nonsense.

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          5. @Club the Scoffer

            I think all you proved — are capable of proving — is that you enjoy being hateful. When we have no desire to understand, we cannot.

            Proverbs 14:6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
            6 A scoffer seeks wisdom and finds none,
            But knowledge is easy to one who has understanding.

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          6. Tom, all you have is trying to claim that by having facts that show you wrong, I somehow am “hateful”.

            Then reality must be “hateful” to you. That’s a shame you have to live in a universe that is just as if Tom’s god doesn’t exist.

            You have to lie yet again trying to claim I don’t understand something.

            As for verses from Proverbs, you might want to read them since they say lying isn’t a good thing. “A faithful witness does not lie,
            but a false witness breathes out lies.
            6
            A scoffer seeks wisdom in vain,
            but knowledge is easy for one who understands.” – Proverbs 14

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          7. That’s nice Clubs-

            You are using your God given ability to cut and paste to borrow the ignorance from others.

            But WHERE did I mention ONE word about virus? Or are u simply projecting your fantasies?

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          8. You didn’t mention it at all CS. I mention it to show just how false Christians are. Poor things either admit that their god is impotent against a virus or they claim they can heal it and lies like that can kill people.

            “And WHERE also did the very word Heaven originate?”

            It’s hilarious that you have to claim facts are false, CS. No evidence of this as usual and CS shows us that he ignores his bible when convenient “5 But if our injustice serves to confirm the justice of God, what should we say? That God is unjust to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) 6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7 But if through my falsehood God’s truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come”? Their condemnation is deserved” – Romans 3

            Poor thing, your attempt to use the term “heaven” blew up in your face. Again, CS, do you worship Odin Allfather, the main god from the cultures that the term “heaven” came from?

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          9. God has no competitor Club- except in the minds of the foolish.

            The WHOLE point of Romans 1 demonstrates this so that YOU are without excuse.

            And it is precisely this which makes you uncomfortable and squirm like a worm.

            Your complaints are useless, and God put in our hearts the ability to know right from wrong, and heaven from earth.

            Liked by 1 person

          10. Poor CS, still failing to even show his version of the Christian god exists, and still making claims about it.

            The whole point of Romans 1 is the whole point of the same thing said by other theists: the baseless claim that their god and only their god is the creator. You have nothing unique, CS.

            Hmmm, since the Muslims say the same thing, i must conclude that CS is uncomfortable and “squirming like a worm”.

            Every Christian claims that their god told them how to tell the difference between right and wrong, and funny how all Christians disagree on what right and wrong actions and thoughts are. You all claim that the silly Holy Spirit tells you some truth.

            That none of you can do what Christians are promised to be able to do shows that there is no reason to believe any of you. Your are all poseurs.

            CS, like so many other theists, has to claim that anyone who disagrees with him is “foolish”.

            Remember, CS, you make the same arguments as those theists who you claim are wrong. Until you provide evidence that you are right and they are wrong, you are no better than them.

            I laugh at all of you.

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      2. Why yes, each religion makes distinct different claims about their gods. Each sect of Christianity does the very same thing.

        That you believe your version makes no difference to me and again, most if not all religions say exactly this what is said in Romans 1. I know what Romans 1 argues and again, the same argument is being made by other theists, that their god/s created the universe. The issue, whose god exists and whose god created the universe, is relevant no matter what god one believes in or not.
        The problem you have is that Christians have no “proofs”. You have baseless claims, many of which are the same as those theists you claim are wrong. There is precious little separate from the problem of a magic god existing and that any of the events it supposedly caused happening, from creation to the resurrection. No evidence for either happening.

        Christians are currently lying about their religion and god right now, Tom. They claim that the virus can’t touch them or that they can heal it. This is why I care. Your lies cause harm.

        Christians, including you, put your words in your god’s mouth all of the time. You each invent what you want this god to want. Each Christians has their own interpretation of the bible and that it “really” means. As I have stated before, you each claim that certain things are “sins” when you have no evidence for this and claim your god wants certain morals but you can’t show which ones or that your god exists at all. You claim that other Christians are wrong but can’t even show that you are a Christian per your bible’s definition. You are foolish but not for the reasons you try to claim.

        Then we have your usual baseless threats. Funny how you Christians can’t tell who has your religion right. There is no day we will all be judged, just Christians still making up excuses why their god hasn’t gotten around to returning yet.

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        1. @Club

          Usual scattergun logic. Throw up all kinds of flak and fill the room with smoke so no thinking can take place. Really does not work on a blog. Writing limits the confusion of sound and visual effects.

          What your argument comes down to is that because human beings are not perfect God does not exist.

          The existence of God does not depend upon whether or not we agree upon anything. All we can do is use the information we have and make a logical determination. I say it is logical to believe God exist and foolish to believe He doesn’t. Instead of dealing with that logic, you attack me. That’s why I say you are behaving foolishly.

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          1. Such an excuse, Tom. You choose to lie when you find you can’t answer my questions or rebut my points.

            I do love how you accuse me of such things and then say there is no evidence of these things since they “don’t work on a blog”. Which is it Tom?

            No, my argument doesn’t come down to this: “what your argument comes down to is tht because humans are not perfect God does not exist”. You’ve invented that on your own. My argument is that this god is incompetent or imaginary. You get to choose, Tom.

            Yes, the existence of your god does depend on whether Christians agree on things or not. Since you don’t we have only a couple of possiblities: Your god wants Christians to claim each other are wrong to cause hate and misery; your god can’t keep its word clear showing it is impotent; your god doesn’t exist.

            Which one do you want to claim is true, Tom?

            You use no logic to play pretend your version of your god exists. You can say it is logical to believe in your version of your god. That doesn’t make it logical, Tom. Hopefully you are at least smart enough to realize that stamping your foot doesn’t make things true or logical.

            There is no evidence for your version of your god. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of religions that make the same claims you do using the same arguments you do and funny how you doubt this supposed logic when they use it.

            If you doubt it, why in the world should I believe you when you use that nonsense?

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          2. @Club

            Logic begins with assumptions, with observations we call self-evident. This is true even of mathematics, which provides way of logically modelling cause and effect.

            The existence of God is self-evident to anyone who takes the time to think about it. Philosophers go further by providing logical proofs.

            You don’t like any of that? So? Take it up with your Maker. He listens to complaints. He just gives us the answer we need, not the one we think we want.

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          3. Logical arguments do indeed begin with assumptions aka presuppositions. You falsely claim that all assumptions are self-evident, that is something you added to make an excuse for your god e.g. the chistian baseless claim that the universe is evidence for your version of the Christian god. Those make the logical argument truthful or not. If you have presuppositions that are false or baseless, the logical argument fails by definition.

            So, where in mathematics is this supposed “logical modelling of cause and effect”? You see, Tom, I have no reason to believe your claims since your constant ignorance and lies have shown you untrustworthy.

            Yep, here we go, the baseless claim that you want everyone to accept without thought “The existence of God is self-evident to anyone who takes the time to think about it.” Sorry, most if not all theists claim this about their god and funny how none of you can show that your baseless claim is true. I’m still waiting for evidence. A baseless claim that you use and then discount when someone else uses it isn’t evidence. Philosophers don’t provide logical proofs. What I’m guessing you are referring to are the various “arguments” like the cosmological, the teleological, ontological etc and then the even more ridiculous arguments like the argument from morality, beauty, consciousness, etc. All of these can be shown to fail since their presuppositions can’t be shown to be true. And again, they argue for a vague power, not your version of the Christian god. You can’t show that you have the right answer.

            I don’t’ have to like or not like the failed claims you make, Tom. They simply fail. And your god doesn’t care since it doesn’t exist. As we can already see, your god does absolutely nothing, nothing about the virus, nothing about supporting poor Tom in his baseless claims.

            Oh and is this short enough for you and your incompetent fellows? No one wants to strain you. No time frame to respond, just when you can. You don’t have to feel stressed.

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          4. @Club

            Logical arguments do indeed begin with assumptions aka presuppositions. You falsely claim that all assumptions are self-evident, that is something you added to make an excuse for your god e.g. the chistian baseless claim that the universe is evidence for your version of the Christian god.

            Well, it took you a while to dream that one up.

            The existence of God is self evident. The nature of God is not necessarily self evident. The Bible tells us much about God we otherwise would not know.

            The people who most worship science often know little about it. I suppose that is why they treat scientists like priests, the only people who know how to intercede with their god.

            Mathematics is the language of science, and it can be a difficult subject. Scientists use mathematics to convey their theories. Theories about what? How did that happen?

            In the language of mathematics, theories become equations like:
            E = m c**2 and P V = n R T and m = (Q M) / (F z).

            The first equation shows an equivalence between mass and energy (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence). If we can increase the amount of mass converted to energy (a cause), we get more energy (an effect). That might help explain why nuclear bombs have such a big boom.

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          5. I didn’t “dream” anything up but thanks Tom for showing you have no idea how logical arguments work.

            There is nothing “self-evident” about your god’s existence or nature. As usual, a theist is changing their claims when they find they fail. You make this baseless assumption and then you use it in your claims of logic. Since the premise of your argument is not true, then your logical argument fails no matter how pretty it might look. Again, most , if not all, religions make the claim that their god is “self-evident” and they can’t convince anyone else of that, despite of all of you claiming that this argument is “logical”.

            That Christians can’t agree on what the bible says shows that all of you make up your own version of your god. Christians do not agree on what morals their god wants, which parts of the bible to take as literal, metaphor and which to ignore altogether, what hell/heaven are, who will be saved and how to be saved. We have Christians who claim free will and we have Christians who claim predestination. We have Christians who claim that saints are involved, and Christians who claim that’s not true. So, you don’t know about this god, but you sure do make a lot of things up.

            I don’t worship science and I don’t know any other atheist who does. We don’t treat scientists like priests since we always question and other scientists have no problem tearing apart someone’s research to see if it is true or not. Scientists do not intercede with any god since no gods exist. Poor Tom, you must hate that you constantly depend on the sciences and scientists. The computer you type on, the modern foodstuffs you eat, modern medicine, all from that science you hate so much when it shows that Tom isn’t the special person he thinks he is.

            Mathematics is the language of some of the sciences. It can indeed be a difficult subject. No, scientists don’t only use mathematics to convey their theories. You are completely ignorant about that, but that is no surprise at all. Yep, I know that Einstein’s equation is E=mc2 and that PV=nRT is the ideal gas law and m=QM/Fz is Faraday’s Law of Electrolysis.

            You also show again that you can’t even get cause and effect right. A cause is what “something that brings about an effect or a result”. A cause in a nuclear explosion is the impact of fissile material together which starts the chain reaction. The effect is the explosion. The theory isn’t the cause or the effect. It is a description of what happens.

            All nice equations, and we still have no evidence for Tom’s version of the Christian god. No reason to think he has some truth and no reason to believe anything he says without checking it out first.

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          6. @Club the Scoffer

            You also show again that you can’t even get cause and effect right. A cause is what “something that brings about an effect or a result”. A cause in a nuclear explosion is the impact of fissile material together which starts the chain reaction. The effect is the explosion. The theory isn’t the cause or the effect. It is a description of what happens.

            Talk about flailing around. 😏

            One of the arguments for God is that there must be a first cause. No doubt you would reject that argument because God is a only a theory, not a cause.

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          7. ROFL Yep, the argument for a “god” or a force is the nonsense of “first cause”. It’s also called the cosmological argument.

            So, Tom, still waiting for you to show that your god is the “first cause”, that other gods aren’t, and that a “first cause” is needed in the first place.

            God isn’t a theory, not as scientists use the term. A theory is “A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can be repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results.” – wiki entry for “scientific theory” and yes, I’ll hear whining about this. Tom’s version of Tom’s god is at best a hypothesis: “A hypothesis (plural hypotheses) is a proposed explanation for a phenomenon. For a hypothesis to be a scientific hypothesis, the scientific method requires that one can test it.”

            We have hundreds, if not thousands, of hypotheses that say “x” god is the creator. None of the claimants can show that their god is the one, not even the multitude of Christians who insist that the version they created in their own image is the “right” one. We have Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, Eastern Orthodox, Evangelicals, Seventh Day Adventists, etc all claiming that their god and ONLY their god is the “first cause”.

            Poor Tom, can’t actually show I’m wrong again, but repeats a failed claim.

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          8. well, so now we have Tom trying to claim I’m lonely for some random reason. I guess that happens when he has nothing else and can’t show I’m wrong.

            it’s sad when a Christian like Tom has to claim that reality is “abusing” him. One would think his god would ride to his rescue.

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      3. “@John
        Well, all religions don’t reach the same conclusion. Buddhists and the rest of the Atheists have trouble with the idea of a Creator. They seem to think “it just is” explains everything.”

        Poor tom, he doesn’t seem to be able to read “most religions”.

        And no, Tom, you are intentionally lying (again) that atheists thing that “it just is” explains everything. Why do you choose to lie, Tom? Your bible says that this is not a good thing, even if you are thinking you are doing it *for* your god (Romans 3)?

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        1. @Club .

          I take it you equate calling Atheism a religion with some sort of sin. Well, the way you practice it Atheism fits the definition of a religion (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion).

          You still don’t agree? Because Atheism is a belief about God, Atheists are not secular. Atheism is in fact a belief system that focuses directly on God, seeking to prove man does not need God.

          Still disagree? I suspect you also have a religious faith that Atheism is scientific. However, Christians think the Bible and science are in accord, that the scientific progress of Western Civilization resulted from the widespread conversion of Westerners to Christianity. Therefore, calling Atheism scientific does not buy you anything.

          A religious belief only works if its believers are convinced their religious beliefs help them to explain the world. Given that our religious beliefs are supposed to help us explain the world, it is amazing the sort of nonsense people can incorporate into their belief systems and then use their religion to lord over others. Don’t Atheists deem themselves superior because they know the Truth and don’t need God. Pride is a sort of insanity, I suppose.

          Christianity does not tolerate a haughty pride. God is Truth. We don’t discover Him. Because He is merciful He has revealed Himself to us. All we get to do, and it is a great privilege, is share His Gospel, but we cannot make others listen. Instead we see in others how stubborn we were before we were born again. That empathy helps us to accept the privilege of modeling our Savior and doing what He did, humbly serving others.

          We boast in the Lord, not ourselves.

          I pray that the Holy Spirit will soften your heart.

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          1. Well, Tom, your claim is false from the start. The definitionS of religion from MW:

            “1a : the state of a religious b(1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural
            (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious (1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity 2 : of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances 3a : scrupulously and conscientiously faithfulb : FERVENT, ZEALOUS attitudes, beliefs, and practices 3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS 4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith (1a : allegiance to duty or a person : b(1) : fidelity to one’s promises(2) : sincerity of intentions 2a(1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God(2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b(1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
            For all that Christians whine about context, we have you ignoring it when you want. No, atheism is not a religion, not as your religion is defined, which we can see above in any mention of the supernatural, deity, ultimate reality, faith. At best you can try to make believe that one definition is the same as another but that fails hilariously.
            It’s a shame that you try such nonsense in your need to try to claim everyone is like you. Happily, we aren’t.

            No atheism isn’t a belief about a god or your God. It’s the exact opposite, the lack of belief in a god but you need to try to claim that everyone is like you, so you must be right aka the ad populum fallacy. I do wonder if you are okay for me saying that you must believe in other gods since you deny they exist too.

            The thoughtlessness of Christians is amazing but understandable. You are afraid and fear makes people do very silly things.
            As usual, you try so very hard to make believe that atheism is a religion, when it isn’t. The term doesn’t need to be capitalized since you are an atheist when it comes to other gods than your own.

            Atheism is a lack of belief in gods. It isn’t scientific in and of itself; it is supported by science. Science does support the conclusion there are no gods, not even yours, since we have no evidence for magic and plenty for science. Your magic has never been an answer to anything, Tom. There is no evidence of your god doing miracles, no evidence of the essential events in the bible and plenty of evidence that the world has gone on as it always has, Egypt going on as any ancient civilization, not being interrupted by a magic flood or magic plagues. No one noticed it supposedly lost its entire food supply and army. No one noticed the flood, or the fabulous kingdom or the dead people wandering around Roman-occupied Jerusalem or some guy wandering around occupied Palestine with supposedly a literal legion’s worth of men, plus women and children.

            No, Christians don’t think that the bible and science are in accord. There are plenty of Christians who try to claim young earth creationism, old earth creationism, theistic evolution, etc, none of which science supports. The bible claims that stars are little things that can fall to earth. We know that is false. We know that bird blood won’t cure skin diseases, we know that living entities evolve. We know that the bible claims are wrong.

            And ah, “western civilization” the code word of the bigot. How expected of you, Tom. No, “civilization” didn’t happen because of Christianity. It was happy and healthy in most parts of the world far before your religion came into existence. Christians who know history know that you are lying when you ignore the civilizations that didn’t need your religion at all.

            A religious belief, as in the context of your religion, Tom, does only work if its believers thoughtlessly think it explains the world. When you ignore the sciences, like Christians like you do, your religious belief fails. You have no facts to back up your false claims. It is indeed amazing the sort of nonsense that Christians and other theists incorporate into their belief systems, often the same thing but they have to make baseless claims that their god was the creator rather than someone else’s made up nonsense. It is amazing how you try to use your religion to lord over others, with Christians trying to legislate their baseless nonsense into law, Muslims trying to do the same, and you all having no more than a child’s imaginary friend.

            I can’t speak for all atheists, but nope, atheists don’t deem themselves superior to others. We just have facts to support our conclusions. Christians, like you, don’t. You use the same arguments as other theists, insisting your version is right and theirs isn’t, all with no evidence to support your claims.

            If pride is an insanity, Tom, you are a true nutcase. However, it isn’t. Pride is an often justifiable feeling and Christians have it in spades with their assumption that their best friend is a omnipotent/omniscient god that unsurprisingly can’t do anything.

            No, what your version of Christianity can’t tolerate is someone showing you that you are wrong and just the same as every other theist you claim is wrong. You disagree with your fellow Christians but think that your version is the only right one. You can’t show that your version of your god is “truth”, and neither can your fellow theists. You need to fee special so you have to insist that this god revealed himself to ever-so-special Tom. Per your own bible, this god doesn’t allow everyone to accept him or this supposed “revelation”. I do like how you want to claim that Paul is lying in Romans 9. So what else do you ignore since it is inconvenient, wannabee Christian?

            All each Chrsitian does is share their version of this supposed “gospel”. You don’t agree and surprise, none of you can show you are a Christian at all as defined by the bible. So you aren’t impressive at all. Even your god, if it exists, ignores you. You display no empathy at all, Tom. You don’t model Christ at all, either the hateful one who kills every non-christian or the nice one who helps the sick and poor. You are quite a failure from all sides. You serve no one but yourself, your pride and ignorance. You boast in yourself, since your god is no more than you writ large, a god with your petty human hates and desires.

            So, you are praying for this “I pray that the Holy Spirit will soften your heart.” Your prayer failed. Now why would this be? That your god hates you and your attitude? Your god loves me as I am? Or is it that your god simply doesn’t exist?

            Now, you could claim “but but it will happen, honest.” Like so many Christians have claimed. Just like the usual sadistic Christian who wants to pretend that his end times fantasies will come true “soon”, despite it being over 2000+ years. Of course, the most likely scenario is you will try to excuse your impotent imaginary god by insisting to yourself that there must be a “reason” that your god does nothing to lil’ ol’ me at all.

            There isn’t. You’ve just failed.

            Like

          2. @Club

            Well, you copied the definition, but you didn’t read it.
            See. => 2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

            Then check out the second and third definition of “religious”.
            2: of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances
            \\joined a religious order
            3a: scrupulously and conscientiously faithful
            b: FERVENT, ZEALOUS

            Do I expect you to agree with the obvious? Nope. It is an article of faith among Atheists that Atheism is not a religion. Yet whether or not God exist is a religious belief.

            This statement is just ignorant.

            Science does support the conclusion there are no gods, not even yours, since we have no evidence for magic and plenty for science.

            Science does not have the tools to study God. Science is a system for studying (modeling) cause and effect relationships using reproducible experiments. What kind of experiments would we apply to the study of God?

            Do Christians have the fact. on their side? Yes. Do you care about those facts? No.

            Anyway, you got out your scattergun, and you are blasting away at me again. I would be silly to think I could prove the existence of God by proving I am perfect. At the same time, you are silly to think you can disprove the existence of God by proving I am not perfect.

            Like

          3. Well, Tom, I did read all of those definitions for religion and knew you’d try something silly like your post.

            What you are doing now is rather amusingly trying to claim two different definitions mean the same. If you are willing to claim your religion is nothing more than “3a: scrupulously and conscientiously faithful” I’m good with that, since it means your belief is no more important than being really interested in something, like baseball or gambling. Are we agreed on this?

            As for this one “of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances” well, you didn’t read the definitions did you? “(2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious (1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity 2 : of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances” So we have this part “2: of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances” and per MW, religious means “1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity” Alas, I don’t have that nonsense, only you do.

            No, you lie again that atheists have “articles of faith” like you do, Tom. You again are desperate to make believe everyone is like you since you can’t imagine otherwise. It takes real ignorance and arrogance to do this.
            Generally, when Tom declares something “ignorant”, it means he can’t rebut it or answer it. There is nothing ignorant at all to say “Science does support the conclusion there are no gods, not even yours, since we have no evidence for magic and plenty for science. “

            Tom is just upset that it is true. Science does have the tools to study god. Theists for hundreds of years used science to try to find this god, so they were absolutely sure of this. It is only now, when science didn’t turn out like Christians expected it would that they now have to lie about science not being able to reveal this god. If science is to study cause and effect relationship using reproducible experiments, then since Christians say that their god is the cause of the universe and causes miracles all of the time, it by definition able to study this god. Alas, Tom doesn’t think very hard in his desperation.

            What experiments can we run? Well, how about the duality nonsense that Christians claim, that there is a soul separate from the body. Many Christians claim that somehow the soul interacts with the brain, a very physical object. If this soul can interact with something that runs on physical laws and chemistry, then it would be able to be sensed by other equipment since those also run on physical laws and chemistry. But it is no surprise that there has never been any evidence for a soul nor of this god which also supposedly interacts with physical things.

            That Tom can present none of these facts he claims he has on his side, he is simply lying again, trying to make up things that don’t exist. Since he has no facts that show his version of his god exists, no, I do not care about his false claims.

            Then we finish up with Tom whining again, unable to handle written words at his own pace. No one is scattershotting him, Tom just can’t answer what he has been asked and now trying to make up excuses. No one asked Tom to prove the existence of this god by proving that Tom was perfect. That’s a strawman Tom has invented. Tom has yet to show that Tom knows what this god really wants and that his version of Christianity is the only right one.

            Like

          4. Muddled thinkers offer a barrage of words rather than concise thoughts.
            628 words in your last comment. Six hundred twenty eight!!

            Can you boil your comments down to their essential thoughts? I suspect you cannot. Doing so would reveal they are void of substance. You’re hoping the plethora of verbiage will count as a point made. It doesn’t.

            Liked by 1 person

          5. that’s quite a lie and excuse why poor Tom and JB can ignore points made. Oh darn, it’s just too much for our valiant Soldiers of Christ.

            This is from JB who regularly makes posts that long, but oh how he clutches his pearls when someone else does it and he has no way to show me wrong.

            It’s so cute to see such incompetence with excuses. And no, I don’t count the number of words (aw, JB has to try to use big words to seem intelligent) as a point made. I consider the facts I cited to be points made.

            Like

          6. @club

            Dante’s Inferno describes various punishments in Hell. One of those punishments involves fecal matter coming from the inhabitants’ mouth every time they spoke. Seems to me we don’t have go to Hell to see what that looks like.

            Like

          7. Yep, I’ve read Dante’s Divine Comedy. The Inferno does indeed describe various punishments in hell. Christians love to have their sadistic fantasies. We also have some of the early Christians insisting that unbaptized children deserve hell because they had the bad luck to die before a magic ritual.

            The problem Tom has is that he evidently never read it. He appears to be ineptly referring to the Eight Circle, Second Bolgia where flatterers are punished by being in a cesspool. The shit does not come out of their mouths. And I do have to wonder about Tom when he wants to compare me to a flatterer.

            Poor Tom, can’t refute anything I say so he has to have yet more fantasies to feel better.

            Like

          8. @Club the Scoffer

            You caught me in a mistake! Lord have mercy! Now my tormentor will apply thumbscrews.

            I read Inferno by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle In the late 70’s. It is a spinoff of Dante’s book. Here is a quote from a review.

            Niven and Pournelle add a few artistic touches to Dante’s original creation: in the level of the Flatterers, Dante never says where the excrement comes from. Allen tells us that the flatterers’ mouths are second anuses. (http://www.larryniven.net/dante.shtml)

            I suppose scoffers belong with sowers of discord (Canto XXVIII, Bolgia 9), but the difference between flattery and malicious ridicule is small. Both involve wilful lying.

            Like

          9. No, I caught you in a failure where you tried to be clever with an insult and failed.

            I read Niven’s work too. I liked it. The sequel is not very good. Nice excuses, Tom, but that’s all you have. You should know about lying since you do it constantly.

            It is curious that you whine so much but here we are.

            Like

          10. @Club the Scoffer

            I find your endless insults more absurd immature than anything else. That is all you have to do?

            Proverbs 22:10 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
            10 Drive out the scoffer, and contention will go out,
            Even strife and dishonor will cease.

            At this point, I don’t see much point in further discussion. You have even acknowledged being a scoffer. I suggest you look at this page. => https://citizentom.com/blogging-code-of-conduct/

            Like

          11. No insults Tom, just facts. It is no surprise you cannot refute anything I’ve said. All you have is whines about politeness that are baseless. Where am I wrong, Tom?

            or can’t you actually show evidence?

            And nice list of what a cowards doesn’t want to deal with. So much for an omnipotent being having your back. Do you think your god is stupid enough to believe that you don’t break your own supposed “rules”.

            ” I will always credit the work of others and provide links to that work wherever possible.
            3. I will not knowingly publish information that is false or incorrect. Should I publish anything shown to be false or incorrect, I will offer a correction and an apology, if appropriate, as quickly as possible, in at least as visible a position as the original false or incorrect information appeared.
            4. I will avoid personal attacks or unfair characterizations of the subjects of my published works and the readers who offer comments.
            5. If I perform the work of a newsgathering journalist in the course of my blogging, I will endeavor rise above personal biases and factually report all relevant information.
            6. I will not censor or edit the feedback I receive except for foul language or malicious intent. I will endeavor to be accessible to my readers and to respond to their complaints and suggestions.”

            how are facts “mallicious intent”? Because they dare show that Tom isn’t telling the truth?

            and hmmm, personal attacks to excuse your behavior like “immature”. or this “Dante’s Inferno describes various punishments in Hell. One of those punishments involves fecal matter coming from the inhabitants’ mouth every time they spoke. Seems to me we don’t have go to Hell to see what that looks like.”

            it’s typical to see a Christian try to lie to his god.

            and oh look, a description of god done by Tom “The scoffer strives to punish and destroy those who do not agree with him. ” I did notice that you ran away from that point.

            Like

          12. @club

            You fit the description of what the Bible calls a scoffer. The Bible does not speak kindly of scoffers.
            https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=scof&qs_version=AMPC&limit=25

            For example:

            Proverbs 21:11 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
            11 When the scoffer is punished, the fool gets a lesson in being wise; but men of [godly] Wisdom and good sense learn by being instructed.

            I am in no position to punish anyone. Nevertheless, I take the Bible seriously, and I don’t think it makes sense to reward your scoffing and play by your rules. Therefore, I respond only to the points you make that I think others might find interesting. You have not noticed?

            If most of what you write is uninteresting, ….. Well, I suppose you do deserve some “credit”. Occasionally, you are funny. You claim science can study God. That’s a hoot!

            Our Creator made us. He made the laws of the universe in which we reside. Our Creator is not even confined to the universe in which we reside. And we are suppose to study Him? A spiritual being? An infinite spiritual being?

            I don’t think you understand the problem. He is God. He is in charge. Not you.

            Like

          13. Yep, Tom, I am a scoffer at the baseless claims and lies you and other Christians make. Scoff: : to treat or address with derision (the use of ridicule or scorn to show contempt) I have read the bible so yep, I know the term and how the poor bible writers try so very hard to make people stop ridiculing them and their baseless claims.
            They, and Christians like you, try so very hard to play pretend that only people who agree with you are “wise” and have “good sense”. We can easily see that’s not true, and just the vanity and arrogance of people who want to pretend that their god agrees with their nonsense. Most, if not all, theists want to pretend this and surprise, none of you can show that you are particularly wise or sensible.

            Indeed, your actions show that you are not, with your belief in a god that does nothing, not even against a virus.

            You are right, you are in no position to punish anyone but you really really hope your god punishes people who show you to be completely wrong. You are as impotent as your god. You do indeed take the bible seriously, and a Muslim takes the qu’ran seriously, and a Zoroasterian takes the avesta seriously. So what? You pick and choose what to respond to since you have no answer to so many things. But nice excuse, Tom! Other theists make the same excuses too because you all fail.

            And now we also get the excuse by the Christian who is failing “most of what you right is uninteresting”. No, Tom, I don’t believe that at all. You’ve yet to show that science can’t study god. You just have to pretend it can’t to create a gap for your little god to fit into.

            Still more baseless claims about “our creator”. Nope, no evidence for that at all, just like there is no evidence of the same thing from the other theists who use the same arguments that you do. I do love how Christians make up more and more nonsense to excuse their god’s impotence and evident lack of existence. Nope, no evidence your god exists or exists outside the universe or if there is an outside to the universe. Just more nonsense that Tom makes up so his god can hide. No evidence of a spiritual anything or an “infinite spiritual being”.

            Oh darn, your version of the Christian god is in charge. ROFL. Oh really? It can’t do anything to me, or to a virus, no matter the sad little sadistic threats coming from its suppose worshipers. I can type “the Holy Spirit useless, worthless and a complete lie” and nothing happens. The poor thing is stuck with claims it finds people’s car keys, and parking spaces or healing sickness that had no evidence for it to begin with. This poor god is stuck with incompetents like you, and JB and colorstorm. That’s enough evidence to show that your god doesn’t exist at all.

            Like

          14. @Club the Scoffer

            So, you admit you are a scoffer. Well, better men than I have puzzled over why the Lord allows such as you to torment those who believe in Him. Psalm 73 provides a good example.

            What is the difference between a scoffer and a Christian. The scoffer strives to punish and destroy those who do not agree with him. The Christian tries to win over those who scoff at the idea that Jesus Christ is God to Jesus Christ.

            Like

          15. Well, there are easily better men than you are, Tom, but men who waste their time thinking about an imaginary being aren’t better men than anyone.

            Yep, one has to wonder about a god that does nothing at all and one has to wonder about human beings who waste their time and resources on such a being. It’s a very intoxicating idea to believe that some magical being agrees with you and only you. alas you can’t show that to be the case at all. You are one crab in a bucket of crabs all trying to crawl over each other to be the OneTrueChristian(tm).

            The universe is just like there was no god that agrees with Tom. Psalm 73 is the whining of a believer like Tom who is upset that this god does nothing for him and again has nothing but sadistic little fantasies.

            It’s hilarious since your god must be a scoffer thanks to your description that a “scoffer” tries to punish and destroy those who don’t agree with them. You are quite the scoffer too, Tom. You claim that other Christians aren’t real Christians.

            Christians might indeed try to convince others that they and they alone have the “right” answer. You have your version of Jesus Christ and of this god. You can’t even convince other Christians you are right. Again, we have Christians having no problem with attacking each other and, oh my, *scoffing” at their claims.

            Like

  2. Tom, Colorstorm

    Interesting subject. We see all the beauty made by God and even realize it is impossible to be duplicated by man, yet we choose to ignore, or acknowledge, or discern that only God could have created the heavens and earth.

    The reasons why can vary.. I would relate the core reasons to have been observed by King Solomon in these two verses.

    God has made everything fit beautifully in its appropriate time, but he has also placed ignorance in the human heart so that people cannot discover what God has ordained, from the beginning to the end of their lives. (Ecclesiastes 3:11)

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    The proud and the arrogant is called ignorant, who in anger worketh pride. (Proverb 21:24)

    In other words, we are ignorant if we never take the time to discern what is apparent in the heavens

    Or, we are arrogant to discern what is apparent. That is we cannot discover what God has ordained,

    Either of the above reasons can be also be defined in the Bible with fools or scoffers.

    Regards and goodwill blogging.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Interesting comment. Not sure what to make of that translation of Ecclesiastes 3:11. Distinctly different from others I have seen. Still, I cannot disagree that we are ignorant if we don’t take the time to discern what is apparent in the heavens.

      Liked by 1 person

  3. CLEARLY, you added color, sound, aroma, and much more to a very deserving truth made by God via Paul and Romans. Well done CT as usual with the collating of ideas.

    Hope others, believer and non, as well as our friend steve, are ‘skilled’ enough to recognize the obvious connection that we believers have in expressing what is creative and real. but most of all truthful.

    I too agree that people’s discomfort in scripture is not due to a lack of evidence, but what it expressly says regarding us, things only God could know. It’s ok to be uncomfortable with truth. Yet there is a Comforter……Truly though, the heavens declare the glory of God. Love that, and we continue to say so.

    (tkx for the mention- It’s a bit humbling to know others think on things, then unwrap those things further. 😉

    Liked by 2 people

    1. @ColorStorm

      Bernard of Chartres used to say that we [the Moderns] are like dwarves perched on the shoulders of giants [the Ancients], and thus we are able to see more and farther than the latter. And this is not at all because of the acuteness of our sight or the stature of our body, but because we are carried aloft and elevated by the magnitude of the giants. — Isaac Newton

      Forgive me for standing on your shoulders. I promise my shoes were clean.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. You are waaaay to generous CT in your compliment- but we share equal appreciation- both of our Creator- and our testimonies.

        Love that cited quote too- after all- don’t we borrow on the goodness of those gone before.

        Liked by 1 person

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