WHOSE FAULT WAS IT?

The picture shows how we imagine it, but was Eve alone with the serpent? Did Eve succumb to temptation and then tempt Adam, or did Adam fail to protect Eve and the Garden from the Serpent?

What are the Differences in Gender Roles in Scripture? Jerry Bowyer with John Hall and Kathy Emmons (christianoutlook.com) deals with question, and it is well worth considering how it does so. In fact, The Christian Outlook is a good site to visit on a regular basis.

Now consider what the Apostle Paul had to say about Eve.

2 Corinthians 11:3 New King James Version (NKJV)

3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

We can choose to be deceived. We may be told the Truth and still not want to believe. God spoke directly to Adam, and Adam still did not believe God.

Abraham was saved because of the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, and because he believed God (Genesis 15:6).

Also posted at On the Pilgrim Road.

66 thoughts on “WHOSE FAULT WAS IT?

  1. Actually I am aware of their theory/axiom and while many may dispute any lack of empirical study I find it adequate as an observational theory and have quoted from it myself in the past. I tend to raise the question.. the theory is fine if we can explain the “why”, which seems trapped inside human behavior in general and thus difficult to measure effectively. Good point you made, however in the observation about my projection of some impending event. I wasn’t actually suggesting something as great as a war… just the politics will lead to discomfort in society in some manner.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. @Doug

      As powerful as our president may be, there are societal forces largely beyond his control.

      What people believe makes a difference. This post does a good job of explaining why => https://onthepilgrimroad.com/2019/12/29/solzhenitsyn-and-alfie-evans/.

      We vote for people hoping they will do what we want. They usually don’t. We make choices every day, however, and we make those choices based upon our beliefs. In spite of all his power, every president is crucially limited. He can direct some people. He can personally direct a few, but there isn’t much he can do to affect millions of people making their own personal choices based upon what they each believe.

      After four generations of relatively good times, people forget what bad times look like and what causes them. After four generations what we believe to be a good choice changes. Then many of us make poor choices, and then the whole world can become very unsafe.

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  2. There are a few obvious holes in this story Tom, here are some that are not hard to find and ones that I expect would be asked by some theists

    To start with, why did God not warn Adam and Eve about Satan or a snake, because they were both created without any experience or knowledge of life in such things and as young as they were would have only had an understanding of a much younger child. God would have known that and what would happen anyway, right?

    It is in mans nature to seek and thrive for knowledge to understand what he does not know just as man does today. As these two were created in Gods image surely he would have known they were limited in experience and would seek knowledge in any way they could?

    Was this an exercise to show the dominance of men over women?
    This may have back fired as there is many women who teach men and have commanding roles over men. If it was sin these two created surely he could have eliminated Adam and Eve changed the brain and created another couple, rather than drown the world later on down the track. Regardless, God was sinless so why was his creation of Adam and Eve sinful? Why did he not create them to be like Noah and his family, who obviously were created in Gods image and never sinned and lived to some massive ages?

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    1. @sklyjd

      Did God give Adam and Eve enough data to fend off the serpent.

      Genesis 2:15-17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

      15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

      That seems like enough information.

      Were Adam and Eve ignorant, like little children? The story does not say how long they were in the Garden, but they were created without any of the flaws we take for granted. Think about that.

      Adam and Eve did not have Google, but they did have a wireless connection with God. So it is sort of ridiculous to think of them as lacking appropriate data.

      The Creation story is cryptic. It just contains the bare facts. When we read things into it that are not there, we err, not the Bible.

      Why did God create Adam and Eve when He knew they would choose to disobey Him? We can speculate, but we don’t know. What we do know is that God promised those who love Him a Savior.

      Romans 8:28 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

      28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

      God has a plan He knew before He created the world. What that plan entails none of us know. Likely, none of us would understand.

      Noah and his family sinned. We are all sinners, every single one of us.

      Have some men skipped death and gone straight to heaven? A few. A few men have learned in this life what it means to walk with God. Yet they too sinned and needed a Savior.

      Liked by 1 person

  3. Doug,
    Thanks for providing a timely example in your statement: “Absolutely nothing. I just saw an opportunity to extrapolate ……”

    …that proves my post comment to Tom about how certain politicians, new media, and Trump hater’s ‘modus operandi’ to shift the blame to Trump for anything or everything,

    Oor in other words to pass the blame for all the bad decisions made over the years by Liberals who call themselves Progressives. Problem is progress means to go forward, not repeat the same follies of past generations and the belief of Presentism, meaning present generations believe they are wiser than past generations.

    Regards and goodwill blogging and happy New Year.

    PS: I’m, hoping the new year that you will change your modus operandi to discern that perhaps you are pointing fingers in the wrong direction to blame Trump instead of complimenting him for his accomplishment to expose the truth of all the “Ox” in Washington stalls.

    If Interested why “Ox”

    https://rudymartinka.com/2019/12/27/king-solomon-blog-two-missing-ingredients-of-pelosi-trump-hatred-conundrum/
    .

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Well.. all the “ox” aside, Rudy, the issue is not “all the great things he has accomplished” but rather at what cost to America in regards to personal morality, international prestige and leadership, total disregard for our institutions and loudly proclaiming such, flagrant disregard and complete inexperience in the use of Presidential power and traditions, disregard.. complete disregard… to the other branches of government… and loudly proclaiming such, consistently and constantly each and every day in maintaining the national divide through childish and mindless verbal/Tweet attacks thereby helping to incite racial tensions and persecution (even as we speak) by emboldening Right Wing extremist groups, and the totally God-awful example the Leader of the Free World sets for young Americans of all ages. Sorry. If there has been any good he has done (and truly.. not much of it even has been that great).. it’s not been worth the price one bit.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Doug,

        An old idiom appears to explain how your views of Tramp differ from the 63 million plus Americans who made a personal choice to vote for him over Clinton.

        “Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.”

        What you only see and object to are his morals which while objectionable “morally” to most people in regards to his personal life, (past tense).

        Voter saw him as someone who listened to their concerns and were disgusted with the other candidates who offered more of the same political promises before being elected and as soon as elected forgot them, or became empty suits.

        For example, illegal immigration lingering for 33 years, China, Canada, Mexico trade deficits which robbed many industry jobs for 33 years, hundreds of thousands of American troops stationed all over the world to police the world being paid by American blood and treasure. Veterans dyeing while waiting in line for medical care, just to name a few.

        As for his personal attacks, when confronted and attacked with disgruntled ox in Washington and empty suits in office for 40 years who did nothing, he does not bow down and kiss their rings, instead he describes them for what he sees them to be in his eyes.

        In other words Doug, voters made choices to signal they are sick and tired of empty suit politicians, many with elitist views that did not include them, and a failed economic theory that globalism is superior to nationalism even if it is totally at the expense of USA citizens when instead it should be fair and equitable.

        While I personally would prefer he follow the wisdom of King Solomon, I support him because he is at least attempting to accomplish his campaign promises.
        As for the morals of Clinton and Biden as a choice based on their their records, sad.
        Thanks for your comment. I doubt mine will change your views in your eyes and other Trump haters.

        If Interested, below is a post I wrote back in 2015 about personally wondering if Trump was a fool according to King Solomon.

        Frankly, in my eyes, Trump turned the tables and is repeating the same scenario described in the Bible story of Jesus Christ when he turned over the tables of sellers and empty suits profiting for themselves in the Temple.(Washington)

        And if you discern his attackers, they seem to be the same scenario of attempting to crucify Trump to remain in power.

        The question you should discern in my opinion, is the Trump haters and ox morality and the blind eye hatred they have to do nothing but attack him and offer nothing new under the sun to solve the problems Trump voters wanted him to solve for the last three decades of a downward trend when they voted for Trump.

        Regards and goodwill blogging.

        https://rudymartinka.com/2015/10/28/king-solomon-is-donald-trump-a-fool-part-4-conclusion/

        Liked by 1 person

        1. Yes.. his 63 million supporters captured the electorate enough to get elected. No question there. But 65 million voters didn’t want him elected. So.. his election is hardly a mandate.

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          1. Doug

            Frankly I used to think the same as you about Popular vote vs. Electoral.

            After I read the reasons wisdom and logic of our founding fathers, and why the popular vote fa vors segments of national interests or elitists or fools, I am in awe of their wisdom to prevent our nation from being overruled by regions or populations instead of national regional interests.

            Even more so the thought that if Clinton won in 2016.

            Regards and goodwill blogging

            Liked by 1 person

          2. Doug,

            Gerrymandering by Pelosi who managed to obtain a impeachment vote by a majority or party gerrymander based on third party accusations instead of evidence.

            Us vs. Me favor? Or why should Biden’s be paid a ridiculous amount to sit on a board being funded by USA taxpayers funds.

            Pure unadulterated hypocrisy, in my opinion.

            Refuses and goodwill blogging

            Liked by 1 person

        2. I would like to thank those 63 million people who voted for Trump for the FU notice (sorry for the language, but it is what it is) they posted to the rest of the world, including myself.

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          1. @marmoewp

            America First is not a FU notice to the rest of the world. Rational people prioritize their relationships.
            1. Family
            2. Friends
            3. Immediate neighbors
            4. Community
            5. Country
            6. Rest of the world

            The USA is more important to me than Germany. Does that mean I think Germany should suffer for the USA’s sake. No. I just expect the people I vote for to put America First, our values and vital interests first, not to turn my country into a cash cow for the rest of the world.

            Most evangelical Christians voted for Trump. Were we announcing an FU to the rest of the world? No. In fact, we alter that priority listing slightly. We regard other Christians as brothers and sisters in Christ. Unlike others we also know we should love those outside our ethnic group and regard them as potential converts.

            So what exactly is this supposed FU notice Trump? Mostly it is just a bunch of propaganda from news outfits like CNN.

            Trump wants other NATO nations to pay 2 percent of their GDP into their own defense budgets? That means he doesn’t care about NATO? Do you realize how dumb we have to believe that?

            Trump wants fair trade, not just a USA policy that allow OTHER nations to trade freely in the USA. Trump wants our trading partners to drop their tariff barriers and predatory trade regulations. Trump wants our trading partners to honor our patents. Because he wants fair trade, that means he does not support free trade? Because he doesn’t want the USA to be taken advantage of, he wants to take advantage of other nations? Do you realize how dumb we have to believe that?

            So stop your whining. Look at what Trump has actually done (the overall picture, not just a few nits), not at what a hostile news media says about him.

            Examples.
            — Don’t you think Europe is better off without refugees fleeing ISIS?
            — How about Ukraine armed with anti-tank weapons instead of blankets?
            — Does it actually hurt Europe if the USA is prosperous instead of economically stagnant?

            Is it all about Global Warming? Well, that is not an FU notice. That’s a response to nonsense.

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          2. Like I said earlier, Tom… what Trump is alleged to have done that’s been so good, has NOT been worth the price of his Presidency one bit. And, for me.. knowing Trump as I do for the last three years… he is definitely an FU kinda person and that’s been his world policy (if you can call anything he has done as a “policy”).

            Look.. you can praise the “circle the wagons” Trump mentality and assign that as “making America great again” nationalistic policy… but our international power and prestige was meandering along just fine, albeit the normal bumps here and there. He’s stripped it down… and emboldened international demagogues. You are completely out of touch if you think one bit that NATO exists to protect the members. It exists to protect US… and the idea that maybe other members were not towing the line as agreed for membership, while a concern for diplomacy, was not in the least breaking our bank over here. In fact, payments were being performed in ways other than cash. What you going to do, Tom, kick out Germany for not paying their fair share and tell them to take a hike? What about France? England? You are way out of touch to even presume to think they need us more than we need them. That’s the bigger picture. Focus more on the Trumpian missteps that have hiked our national debt.

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          3. @Doug

            You are not talking about impeachment. You are just trying to justify your abhorrence (a fancy way of saying hatred) for Donald Trump.

            You want to talk about NATO instead? Switching the subject is what people do when the debate is not going their way. 😏

            NATO is a military alliance. Nations become allies for mutually beneficial reasons. The most obvious advantage is that that their combined forces are stronger than either nation’s military force alone. Therefore, when a NATO nation won’t spend the money necessary to build up its own military forces, there is not much reason to be their ally. In fact, being the ally of such a decadent nation is more likely to get us into a fight we don’t want. Militarily weak nations attract predators.

            Hence, Trump suggested an alternative. If a NATO nation does want to build up their own military forces, they should pay us for defending them. Frankly, I don’t much care for such a mercenary arrangement, but I suspect Trump just wants to shame people into doing what they have already said they would do.

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          4. Funny how that is, isn’t it? You, me, Tony, marmoewp, Liz… it’s all kinda cyclical debating. No one is going to change their minds. We point out each other’s ridiculous thinking.. and drift away for another day. The thing is… you’re kicking back thinking Trump is great and all is well with the world, and just let the Trump-haters consume themselves. The problem with that… things are not just going away when the Senate allows him to stay or even if he gets re-elected. Things in this country are going to get very worse… and I am sure there’s going to be a big political boom inside the next thirty days. Dunno the nature of it. Whether Trump stays or goes… 2020 is not going to go well.

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          5. @Doug

            There is a book I read some years back, The Fourth Turning by William Strauss and Neil Howe. Here is a description of the book => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss–Howe_generational_theory. Here is what Wikipedia says the book was about.

            The Strauss–Howe generational theory, also known as the Fourth Turning theory or simply the Fourth Turning, which was created by authors William Strauss and Neil Howe, describes a theorized recurring generation cycle in American history. According to the theory, historical events are associated with recurring generational personas (archetypes). Each generational persona unleashes a new era (called a turning) lasting around 20–22 years, in which a new social, political, and economic climate exists. They are part of a larger cyclical “saeculum” (a long human life, which usually spans between 80 and 90 years, although some saecula have lasted longer). The theory states that after every saeculum, a crisis recurs in American history, which is followed by a recovery (high). During this recovery, institutions and communitarian values are strong. Ultimately, succeeding generational archetypes attack and weaken institutions in the name of autonomy and individualism, which ultimately creates a tumultuous political environment that ripens conditions for another crisis.

            The book purports to show that human history starts a new cycle every four generations. A generation lasts about 20 years. The last crisis involved the Great Depression and World War II.

            The Great Recession started in 2008. That is about 80 years after the Great Depression started. Since then I have expected something like World War II to start around 2019. Since the impeachment doesn’t seem that serious, I expect we will soon be seeing more trouble. What? Don’t exactly know.

            Why would history run in cycles? We only live about 80 years. So that is about the length of our institutional memory. After 80 years latter generations start repeating even the worst mistakes of previous generations. Apparently we have that much trouble grasping the suffering those mistakes caused.

            Why did World War II start? Didn’t people still remember World War I? Yes, but the art of avoiding warfare doesn’t involve appeasing our enemies. A couple of the leaders of the coalition that eventually formed the Allies had apparently forgotten that.

            Note: This is the second version of this comment. I posted this latter version because I thought I had not posted the earlier version. When I realized my mistake, I deleted the original.

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          6. but our international power and prestige was meandering along just fine, albeit the normal bumps here and there. He’s stripped it down… and emboldened international demagogues.
            Not only is there no evidence of the above statement, all evidence points to the contrary.

            You are completely out of touch if you think one bit that NATO exists to protect the members. It exists to protect US… and the idea that maybe other members were not towing the line as agreed for membership, while a concern for diplomacy, was not in the least breaking our bank over here.
            Nations wouldn’t be members of NATO is NATO existed only to protect the US. This is a statement so ignorant I am embarrassed for you. Many NATO states have not lived up to their agreements to fund their own defense for decades. As a result, we are required, via security guarantees, to do so. And yes this has cost us money…a great great deal of it.
            Good Lord.

            Liked by 1 person

          7. If one wants to shake ’em down a bit to satisfy a collective mission and remind members of an obligation, no problem by me. But the clown has no use for NATO for purely money reasons.. when it is plain as day it could be seen as an insurance policy… which has worked all these years… and all he has managed to do.. for Putin… is divide the members over money vs. mission.
            Also, I can see you share Trump’s shortsighted vision… or rather no vision at all… and taking my statement the NATO exists for the U.S. as some sole reason for it’s existence. The absolute practical strategic impact was/is keeping the Soviets.. now Russia… at bay to preserve our defense against Russian expansionism by bolstering the defense of Europe in a defense umbrella. And.. each and every member is in it for themselves as well.
            I know you think you have some inside scoop because of a past in being associated with military connections… but your scoops don’t always seem relevant anymore as times change and apparently you think the past leadership has been severely flawed anyway until Trump came on board to “fix things”. So maybe you should question what you think you know as ignorance can strike anytime and anywhere. You don’t need to be embarrassed for me… I can do that quite well on my own. How about you?

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          8. @Doug

            You are almost incoherent. Think about the difference between an emotional response and a logical one. Instead of considering the problem, trying to define it and logically test various solutions, you are characterizing the people who dare to disagree with you. You know better than that. Why don’t you act like it?

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          9. Hence, Trump suggested an alternative. If a NATO nation does want to build up their own military forces, they should pay us for defending them. Frankly, I don’t much care for such a mercenary arrangement, but I suspect Trump just wants to shame people into doing what they have already said they would do.

            2 percent.
            2 percent
            That is all we ask other NATO countries to spend in consideration for their own defense, to honor security commitments they have made with us…so that we won’t have to take up the slack. Germany has been the largest economy in Europe for how long? And they can’t afford two percent? It is absurd it has taken this long.

            Liked by 1 person

          10. when it is plain as day it could be seen as an insurance policy… which has worked all these years…

            Good analogy.
            Imagine an insurance policy where you’re paying in (and have been paying in for years) and find out the insurance company doesn’t have the funds to cover what they’ve agreed to cover. Or imagine being in an insurance plan with others and everyone has agreed to pay a price for group coverage, and several don’t pay what they’ve agreed to so your money is covering them. Now say…they’re rich and can pay. In fact, other folks have been begging to join your insurance network and are willing to pay that two percent or more…but the folks already in it say it’s too much, you just have to keep paying their share for their coverage.

            Liked by 1 person

  4. Tom,

    Interesting perspective in your post to shift the blame to Adam instead of Eve.

    Brought a smile to my face because my post today is to remind us that it is a father’s duty to teach his children.

    Obviously, there were no children at that time. However, your perspective reminded me how my wife usually turns the tables so I always become the ‘blamee’ instead of the ‘blamer.’

    Oh well, appears Jesus knew this and took the blame for both the blamers and blames.

    There is obviously a Christian moral for both sexes to own up to their responsibilities during our short time spans and especially in our duties and responsibilities to our families and communities, instead of passing the buck or pointing fingers of blame like our irresponsible politicians and news medial appears to be relish doing as evidenced in the news reports everyday.

    Regards and goodwill blogging.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. @Doug

      That is similar to what I pointed out to Angel.

      At the end of the Book of John, Peter asks about another apostle. Jesus tells Peter not to worry what He has in mind for John. He said, “you follow me”.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Tom,

        Great applicable Bible verse you chose for your topic.

        “Jesus tells Peter not to worry what He has in mind for John. He said, “you follow me”.
        Problem is twofold, not many people read the Bible nowadays and are unable to either apply or discern the meanings to apply in their lives.

        The result is many no longer can discern the wisdom to understand there is only one right path and to clear their heads from following the other Biblical charters path.

        Regards and goodwill blogging.

        PS Also agrees with a sentence in my blog today….

        “to not follow behind and listen to the music of Pied Pipers politicians and news medial to drown in avoidable misery.”

        Regards and goodwill blogging.

        Liked by 1 person

      1. Well, the Bible says that Eve was deceived. And that is given as the reason that she should not teach men.

        Adam however knew better, and was not deceived. And did it anyway. Hence the sin nature of every human born afterwards entered by Adam.

        Eve jumped in first, then looked for Adam.

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          1. @Angel

            I suppose I could be wrong, but consider. Was the woman deceived by the serpent? Yes, but think about what Adam said to God.

            Genesis 3:11-12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

            11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” 12 The man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.”

            Adam actually had the audacity to blame God for his sin. Adam’s excuse? He could not resist the woman God had given him. Apparently, Adam feared to displease Eve. Therefore, Adam allowed Eve to deceive him.

            Does this sound like the typical excuse for the man? Adam’s love for Eve made him commit sin? Well, that is a stupid excuse. What man would just stand there and allow someone he loves to be deceived by a damned serpent? Adam should have feared to displease God, not Eve.

            It seems Eve could lead Adam by the nose. That is probably the reason for 1 Tim 2:14. It is a warning to the women. Women should not seek dominance over men. It backfires anyway. Consider how angry Adam was with himself. He blamed God? That’s a crazy rage.

            Adam’s desire to please Eve is probably why Satan chose to “deceive” Eve. Satan knew that if he successfully tempted Eve the big oaf would bite the apple too.

            We sin when we are disobedient to God. We sin because we don’t trust Him, because we do not have sufficient faith in what WE KNOW TO BE TRUE BUT DON’T WANT TO BELIEVE.

            Take the time to compare various virtues with their counterparts.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_virtues
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins

            Each of the virtues requires self-discipline to achieve. We have to have faith that practicing the virtue will produce the best results. For a Christian, that means having faith in God.

            Each of the seven deadly sins ultimately results from one great sin, pride. Instead of trying to please God, having faith in the value of obedience to Him, we put our own immediate desires first. Therefore, even if we achieve some virtue — some measure of self-discipline — we put those virtues in service solely to our self.

            Liked by 1 person

          2. Ok, I have to tell you something about me. It’s not that I don’t appreciate all your words and this conversation, because I do.

            It’s just that your essay is a lot to go through.

            I’ll read it tonight but I wanted to be honest and let you know I don’t have time to read every single bit of it right now.

            Here’s the bottom line for me: If the Bible says it, that’s what I’m going to believe.

            In closing I’d say this: Eve was deceived, Adam was not. So he sinned very willingly.

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          3. @Angel

            The primary reason I write is that writing forces me to meditate on things. I write about the Bible because I enjoy thinking about it. I share what I write because I am interested in what others think.

            Do my readers try to correct me from time-to-time? Yes. Is that a problem? No.

            Proverbs 27:17 New King James Version (NKJV)

            17 As iron sharpens iron,
            So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.

            I am not about to tell you to believe me instead of the Bible. However, I do think it is important to realize that both Adam and Eve sinned. Neither Eve nor Adam refused to eat the forbidden fruit.

            Sin is not just a male or female problem. Males and females have different roles, but don’t both sexes sin? Don’t both need salvation?

            Was Adam’s sin greater? Or was Eve? What does Bible say about making such judgments? What qualifies any of us to judge the extent either Adam’s or Eve’s sin? Instead of fixing the blame is it not better to fix the problem?

            The Bible provides us wisdom with respect to avoiding evil, but only God judges heart.

            Anyway, I realize that is a long audio file. So, I don’t expect many to listen. However, I think those interested in the subject will be rewarded. Thanks for your comments.

            Liked by 1 person

          4. I do agree it’s a “both sinned” problem.

            But I think, all things considered, if God points it’s out that Eve was deceived and that’s one of the reasons women shouldn’t teach men, then it’s important enough to believe.

            I’m not disagreeing with you about it being sin. 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

          5. Was Adam witnessing the deception? I think it’s assumed that he’s not present, but does a reading of the text indicates that Adam should also be in that picture? Did Adam let Eve be deceived? Did Adam forgo his role as head? How does Ephesians 5 indicate the role of a husband? To act as the new Adam and die for His bride the Church. Did Adam then throw Eve under the bus when God questioned him?

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          6. @Phillip

            Some translations indicate Adam was present, and the expert in that Christian Outlook audio says the Greek transcripts indicate the presence of Adam.

            Did Adam let Eve be deceived? Yes. Adam had a responsibility to protect the Garden. Look up Genesis 2:15-17.

            Adam did not act in Eve’s best interests. He was not deceived. He knew the serpent was not being truthful, but he apparently rationalized the problem away because of Eve. He should have driven the serpent from the Garden.

            Eve did not act in Adam’s best interests. Eve gave Adam the forbidden fruit AFTER she had taken a bite. At that point did she know the serpent had lied? We don’t know for certain, but we do know the forbidden fruit did not produce the results those two wanted.

            Why did she give Adam the fruit until she knew for certain what the fruit did? She didn’t wait. Why not? Was she afraid of facing the wrath of God by herself?

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    1. Adam did not believe God. If he had, he would have stopped Eve from sinning. He wanted her to sin. But she repented and turned back to God. Genesis 3: 15 could not have happened if Eve’s soul was in a sinful state. This is the first promise of a Savior.

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      1. @Tweety134

        Adam was not deceived, but he did deceive himself. As you say, Adam did not believe God.

        Did Adam want Eve to sin? I don’t know. That is more than I think we can glean from the text.

        Did Eve want Adam to join her in sin? What we know is that she gave Adam the forbidden fruit.

        We know Adam could not do what he should have tried to do, drive away the serpent and stop Eve from eating the apple. We know that Eve knew God did not want her to eat that fruit. Yet she did and she gave some to Adam.

        We also know that each of us would have failed the same test.

        Liked by 1 person

        1. Yes. Adam wanted Eve to sin. He then blamed her for everything. Adam wanted to be God Himself. Eve repented of her transgression and turned back to God and serving Him. Genesis 3:15. Is a promise. To Eve. Not Adam. It is the first promise of a Savior for the sin that was committed. Because by one man sin entered this world. Eve is nowhere mentioned. Adam never repented of his sins.

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          1. Also the only thing that Eve did wrong is add to God’s Word. She told the serpent: “Thou shall Not Touch It” God never said this to Adam. But Adam told this to Eve. You can not say God lied to Eve because there is no scriptures saying he gave her a command like He gave Adam. I study Adam and Eve daily. My insight on these two people would amaze you.

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          2. @Tweety134

            God cannot lie. So, I do not think He lied to Eve. How did that get into this conversation?

            I don’t claim any great, profound Biblical insights. I am just happy I believe the Bible.

            Let’s look at Genesis 3:14-15.

            Genesis 3:14-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
            14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:

            “Because you have done this,
            You are cursed more than all cattle,
            And more than every beast of the field;
            On your belly you shall go,
            And you shall eat dust
            All the days of your life.
            15 And I will put enmity
            Between you and the woman,
            And between your seed and her Seed;
            He shall bruise your head,
            And you shall bruise His heel.”

            The “promise” was to the serpent, not Eve. However, that promise was fulfilled via the virgin birth (seed of the woman) of our Savior.

            Did Adam and/or Eve repent? I don’t know, but it is probably worth some thought. Sometimes the Bible declares a particular individual was saved, but it doesn’t seem to have done so with respect to Adam or Eve.

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          3. I was not implying that God lies. But some people would rather say God lies than admit they wrong about something. I have been discussing scriptures with various people for about 15 years now.
            Genesis 3:15 Please read it slowly. Her seed and the serpents seed. The word is enmity. What was her Seed? The Seed is the Word of God. She was to speak the Word of God. Now why would God proclaim a sinner would proclaim His Word?
            And who is the serpent? I just know and scriptures approve is that Eve turned back to God and was righteous. Adam said: She was the Mother of All living. And everyone in Adam die.
            Be Blessed.

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          4. @Tweety135

            What good does it do to make scripture overly complicated? The “seed of the woman” probably refer to humanity in general, culminating in Jesus and the virgin birth, but the Word of God? Jesus is the Word, but He is not the Word of God. The Word of God is the Bible.

            What about the “seed of the serpent”? Likely, that refers to the serpent’s spiritual descendants. However, if you insist the “seed of the woman” is the Bible, you have a conundrum. You cannot divine what is meant by the “seed of the serpent”.

            The word “seed” is used twice in the same verse, and it is use twice the same way. So why would the meaning of the word change?

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  5. “We can choose to be deceived. We may be told the Truth and still not want to believe. Trump spoke directly to His masses about untruths, ‘Do not believe what you see and hear. Only believe in me.’ And his masses did not believe in truth.”

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      1. Tom, you’re an intelligent guy, no question. You are a deeply religious fellow.. and I will never argue with that as that is your compass in life. It’s combining the two and you (and many Christian evangelicals) somehow justify the actions of this guy when he defies the things one would think you stand for. Ok.. you selected him over Hillary.. but that was three years ago. Even if your vote was a “hate Hillary” vote… you’re still supporting everything this guy has done for the last three years. Yeah, it’s still a free country… you have every right. Neither of us are going to change our opinions.
        I am ok with the idea he got impeached and for that he’s marked for all history regardless what the Senate decides to do. The time leading up to the election is going to be a real pain in the butt for him as there will be much more crisis on him to come. In turn.. the country will continue to suffer. None of it is a happy thing.. and Pelozi is correct… this is a somber time for the nation. What happens to Trump is almost inconsequential compared to the repair needed in our national divide.

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        1. @Doug

          I asked you a straightforward question. You came back with a nonsensical rant.

          The Liberal Democrats in Congress impeached President Donald Trump, and they cannot name a single high crime or misdemeanor to justify themselves. That’s why impeachment helps Trump, not the Democrats.

          It isn’t so much that liberals are ignorant. It’s just that they know so many things that aren’t so. ― Ronald Reagan

          The people who call themselves liberals these days are not even liberals, not the way the Founding Fathers and Mothers were. The people in Congress, especially Democrats, want to run our lives for us and spend every cent we have. There is nothing liberal about that.

          When you cannot specifically name what Trump did wrong — when you immediately dodge behind long, winding strings of general accusations — it becomes obvious you know too many things that aren’t so.

          Stop listening to CNN and just assuming they are telling you the truth. When they make accusations, try investigating. For example, if they accuse Trump of saying something outrageous, find out the context of that quote.

          Liked by 1 person

          1. Actually, I listened to the entire House proceedings.. and the witnesses… and made up my own mind based on that… and my own perceptions from day one of his being in office. People who call themselves Republican these days, aren’t. Just the fiscal “whatever I want” Trump proclivity to add greatly to the national debt is a big example. The “old” GOP wouldn’t have done that without a fight… including shoving money into building a wall. Things are a-changin’, Tom. At the outside chance Trump wins in 2020 I’ll be dumping the Republican party to be an Independent. That’s neither a threat nor ranting bravado. Just doing it to reflect my own personal perspectives that Trump and his idea of a bastardized Republicanism is way outside my tolerance. But where I fall into the mix affects just one insignificant vote. I’ll not end up a Trump-hating Liberal, but pretty much will end up being a “what-happened-to-my-party” never-Trumper GOP ex-pat.

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          2. @Doug

            Listening to th House proceedings was not much different than CNN. It was just a little less one sided since Republican congress men and women got to question the Democrats’ “witnesses and speak, but that was about it.

            Still, even with all that blather you cannot point to anything Trump did worthy of impeachment.

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          3. Well… given the rules for impeachment is not any kind of an indictment toward illegality… the Mueller report does list obstruction of justice on the part of Trump, the articles indicate obstruction of Congress in the House’s investigation subpoenas being blocked by a blanket order for the express intent to buy time in the courts, and of course the important issue of all, bribery of a foreign government for personal gain. Now.. of course you don’t agree. And that’s why the Senate is where all this shakes out. Now.. you gotta admit, Tom, for a President you’d think would want to defend himself against the articles there’s sure a lot of McConnell Maneuvering and openly admitted Senate “jury” bias. So far all the Republicans have done is piss and moan about the process being unfair. If anything you get the constant attempts to deflect by claiming Schiff needs to be investigated, the Whistleblower needs to be investigated, the Bidens need to be investigated… no one “appreciated” the results of the DOJ IG report so now Horowitz needs to be investigated and some Trumpian named Dunham is being tossed into that mix to “prove” once and for all a Deep State does exist in the FBI, CIA, and every other governmental acronym… yada, yada, ad nauseum. But here’s the point…. even IF we assume everything and everyone on the Conservative hit list were guilty… none of that absolves Trump of anything in the Articles.

            Like

          4. @Doug

            The Constitution says in Article II, Section. 4.

            The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

            President Bill Clinton was actually guilty of perjury. He was disbarred because he was guilty of crimes. The House cannot provide any proof Trump did anything they want us to believe he did.

            The DOJ IG report blew up the Mueller Report. If Mueller were honest and competent, he would not have taken the special prosecutor job.

            Exercising executive privilege is not a crime. It is silly to call it obstruction of Congress.

            Trump blew up the charge that he had bribed the leader of Ukraine when he released the transcript of their conversation.

            McConnell can see what happened in the House is a farce. Schumer wants to call new witnesses because the House did not make the case. Yet here you are still at it. Sad!

            You are busting wasting time with this impeachment nonsense, making a fool of yourself.

            Like

          5. …and the Senate can vote whatever they wish.. and face the voters in November. You never know.. you might get a grand slam.. Republicans take over both Houses and Trump wins re-election… and the very next day the entire country will sing Kumbaya, all divisiveness will vanish.. the clouds will part and the celestial hosts will come down to celebrate Trump’s Second Coming.

            Like

          6. @Doug

            Americans politicians have used character assassination since the founding, and Democrats have led the way. They even attacked the founding fathers for owning slaves, and they want to erase them from our history. Ironically, slave owners founded the Democratic Party, but they want to keep the Democratic Party, just erase its history.

            And you are worried about Trump. 😕

            Like

          7. I am far more worried about one man thinking he has all the power and acting on his own without oversight, than about 535 individuals reaching any agreement to try doing the same. You might want to consider that.

            Like

          8. @Doug

            You talking about Barack Obama? Donald Trump has had enough oversight that it is wonder he has gotten anything done. Of course, that has been the point of all that oversight.

            Like

          9. @Doug

            Trump cooperated with the Mueller Investigation.

            Read the summary of DOJ IG Report. What Mueller and his Democrat team did is scandalous. With any luck some high officials in the Obama administration will be going to jail, and they will take Obama with them.

            Like

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