It is unfortunate, but
So why did I engage with
When
When she reveals herself and what she believes,
Here is
Tom, your claims of personal incredulity aren’t important to anyone but you.Nope, most of the human race doesn’t’ engage in hypocrisy. You might, and you do try to lie about me being angry. That is a common tactic of Christians, making false claims like that about atheists in order to ignore what I’ve said. Yep, I do hold you accountable to what you claim to believe. It’s interesting that you don’t like that. Exactly how am I being hypocritical doing this, Tom?
You again try to excuse your religion by trying to make more false claims. Fallen world? Where? That is nonsense from your religion. There is no evidence of a fallen world, just like there is no evidence of heaven or hell or your god. Nope the human race doesn’t agree about much, though we do agree in large part on what behaviors make civilization work. However, we are indeed just human. Your religion claims a magical being that supposedly handed out some “truth”, but strangely enough Christians act like there is no god like that at all since they make claims that they and only they know this truth and you have no evidence to support your claims. It’s just like theists are humans who make things up.
Good to see you deny that other Christians are Christian, Tom. This underlines my point well. You can’t show that they aren’t just as valid as you are as Christians. None of you have anything that shows your beliefs are true. As for Christianity and Islam being sects of Judaism, I think a good argument can be made for that since Jesus was supposedly the Jewish messiah, and many Christians run to the OT when they want to put their laws in public buildings and when they are looking for prophecy. I’m less familiar with Islam, but they think Jesus is just one more prophet in a long line of them, including Moses.
Nope, no repenting here since your god is imaginary and Christians can’t agree on what anyone needs to repent.
Yep, Paul said that your god hates one person and loves another. No reason, just a whim from this god. Fathers who are abusive don’t explain themselves. You are offering yet one more classic Christian excuse, that we supposedly can’t understand your god when it is convenient for you. But oh, when you want to claim you know what your god wants, suddenly that “mystery” ends. Per your bible, humans can understand good and evil as well as this god supposedly can. You should read it sometime.
Predestination isn’t a complex topic at all. It’s pretty straight forward when this god supposedly picks and chooses those who can accept it and those who can’t, then damning those who can’t because this is what this god wants, nothing more. Again, we have your morals based on might equals right. Dictators love people like you, Tom. We have no free will per your bible. If you want to claim your god does miracles and interferes with humans, then free will is gone. That you haven’t got a clue isn’t surprising. You make nonsense up.
There is no evidence for your version of your god, Tom, nor is there any evidence that this god is “finding” anything. Your god allowed a family to be killed so it could show off, Tom. It’s no surprise at all that you don’t want to answer my questions about that, Tom. I’m not in a “snit” but I do find it necessary to point out what your bible and your religion claim and how harmful it is. You seem to be willing to have your family killed if this god wants it done. That is disgusting.
I do understand the bible quite well. What I know is indeed more important than your imaginary god that you’ve created in your image. We know many things, Tom. But if you want to claim we know “next to nothing” I do expect you to not use all of the things that humans have invented and discovered. You wouldn’t want to be a hypocrite would you? You need to falsely claim we “know next to nothing” so you can continue to make believe that your god exists.
Yep, we will all die. The earth will be destroyed eventually too. So? I have no problem in pointing out that some imaginary character intentionally allowed a family to be murdered by its supposed archenemy so it could show off to this enemy who already knows who it is. The only thing that is preposterous e.g. “ contrary to nature, reason, or common sense” is your god. This god isn’t concerned with anything since it is imaginary. The point of this discussion is to point out the false claims and bigotry of some conservative Christians and the ridiculous things that the bible claims.
And yep, “If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” Paul evidently quoting Ecclesiastes: “15 So I commend enjoyment, for there is nothing better for people under the sun than to eat, and drink, and enjoy themselves, for this will go with them in their toil through the days of life that God gives them under the sun.” The dead don’t rise.
Here is my reply. At this point the dialogue has become repetitious. So I have decide to close my arguments so I can move on to something else.
@club
I actually have better things to do than to try to refute endless streams of idiotic allegations. However, you do help people to understand how our president feels. So, I suppose you serve a useful, albeit unintended purpose.
Since you put so much effort into your comment, what is worth responding to? Did the Apostle Paul make an allusion to Ecclesiastes as you suggest? Suppose so. Note the phrase “under the sun”. That phrase is used throughout the book. It refers to life without God. If you don’t believe in God, King Solomon would say you are wasting your time. You should be enjoying what you can of your fleeting existence. Of course, if you get your jollies by trying to torment Christians, I suppose that could be your only pleasure. Sad!
Do we know very much? Compared to the Creator? Of course not. Compared to what remains to be discovered? Assuming we could know everything, what is there that we don’t know? Well, you say we know a lot, but I think it more accurate to say we know more than our ancestors knew. We don’t know what we don’t know. In fact, we have lots more questions than answers.
You say you understand the Bible. Yet you interpret what the Bible says in ways that are wildly different from the ways of those who believe the Bible is God’s Word. Therefore, your interpretations have no practical value except to sow confusion. That is what an apostate does.
You say I said that other Christians are not Christians. That is akin to saying I said a rock is not a rock. I don’t think I have said anything so meaningless, but that is a good indication of the lengths to which you are willing to go to distort the words of others.
Go and read Romans 8:28. Consider the implications. Then reflect on the fact that you jumped all over our host for suggesting that God might speak through him.
Was John saying anything arrogant? No. Every Christian is part of the body of Christ. When we seek and do His will, we believe He works though us. That means God will use our words too, but few of us have the presumption to proclaim we speak for the Lord. Still you had to take offense. Well, Jesus did say there would be people who would do that.
With your silly, insane conduct, you affirm the Truth of God’s Word. Romans 1 describes all too well how someone who refuses to honor God will behave. Sadly, you fit that description. You distain others and do only what seems right in your own eyes. That’s why it is so difficult to take you seriously. If what we say and believe does not matter to you, what is the point of replying to your comments?
Note that I did not try to argue with
When we listen to what another person says, what do we usually do? Don’t we try to understand what they are saying? Is that easy? Not really. Ever try to diagram a sentence. Ever consider all the different ways a single word can be understood? When we put together sentences and paragraphs we string together words that each can be interpreted differently. If we don’t take seriously our obligation to try to understand each other, that is a real problem.
So, what if we don’t want to understand what another person is saying? Then we can twist their words and make them sound like they are saying something vile. If we are filled with hate and anger, we may do that. How does anyone argue with hatred and anger? A refusal to understand? What would be the point? This is why I suppose mothers resort to prayer for their stiff-necked children. What else could my mother do?
The Bible is old and translated from ancient languages, and it presents us with Truths we want to deny. It takes work to understand the Bible, but it doesn’t take any effort to misunderstand it. That is why only God can grant understanding of the Bible to someone with a darkened heart. Therefore, if you cherish and believe God’s Word, thank Him.
Anyway, if you are that curious, you can read the entire dialogue with
Citizen Tom 
God bless you
As has been mentioned, you did a superb job (exhibiting far more patience and emotional maturity than I am capable of), but at some point one should stop feeding an exceedingly vile spam bot.
I do feel a great deal of pity for club fraud.
It must be terrible to be her…as anyone with any experience in life whatsoever can tell this is the behavior pattern of a deeply unhappy, troubled individual.
Joke for the day: Atheists don’t solve exponential equations because they don’t believe in higher powers.
Uplifting stuff, from a former atheist turned Christian:
A long while back my spouse went through weapon’s school, and he was the distinguished graduate of the program. This is a program for only the best of the best, and he was the best of the…well, you get it.
At the time of his graduation, he was told that was the most he would ever know. Instructors told him that. Graduates went on to be something called “patch wearers” and they were the experts weapons officers in their wings/ squadrons. Over time, my spouse came to realize that nearly everything he had been very very certain of at the time of graduation had either been disproven….or he was no longer so certain of. He never had the level off hubris most graduates had, so he kept asking questions and learning how very much he did not know. How much he was certain of that just wasn’t true.
On that note: Mathematicians are starting to form the conclusion that evolution (in the macro sense) cannot explain our existence as the time required is a mathematical impossibility.
@Liz
I was an agnostic, and I enjoy debating. So, I doubt I have any special gift of patience. Wish I did.
Have no idea what drives Club. All I can do is point out how she is coming across demonstrate she is not behaving logically.
Atheists are generally proud of their “fearless” ability to do without God and their supposely superior ability to reason. Club is not demonstrating either fearlessness or sound reasoning. She just comes across as bitter.
Funny joke! It would be fun if you started sending one like that every day.
Will watch the video when I get a chance.l Thanks again.
Articles like this are precisely why I’ve never censor or block anyone from my comment section. While I understand why other blog authors want to keep conversations civil (and rational!), I believe letting the depraved speak for themselves is a powerful tool of evangelism. You have redeemed the outraged rants of a fool for God’s glory. In my mind, that’s some of the “evidence” that the atheist insists doesn’t exist.
@John Branyan
You are absolutely correct up to a point.
I cannot say I have never blocked Atheists. When they use foul language, start harassing other commenters, or use the comments section of my blog to publicize garbage that more appropriately belongs on their own blogs, I block them.
A bad example does illustrate for us what we should not do. So a few bad examples do serve a purpose. At some point, however, we must draw a line and put a stop to bad behavior. Because it is far easier to be destructive than it is to be constructive, if the destructive are allowed to run wild, the constructive cannot get anything useful accomplished.
Want an example of the need to draw that line and enforce it? Look at what Liberal Democrat politicians and their allies in the mass media have done and are doing to our country.
If we don’t want our homes and our barns to fill up with manure, some of us have to get dirty. So, thank the plumbers, janitors, and garbagemen. Such are the unsung heroes of our society. We need more citizens who are willing to roll up their sleeves and work as political sanitary engineers.
Sounds like your shoveling plenty of BS alright here brother. 😉
@tsalmon
Gosh! What would I do without such “constructive criticism”?
As the old joke goes, “there must be a pony in there somewhere.” 😆
@tsalmon
Then clean out the barn.
Look up Reagan’s joke – the pile was in the living room under the Christmas tree.
Hey, it’s your strange metaphor. I’m just taking it to it’s logical conclusion, but I like your optimism. Keep shoveling.
Well, since you like smelly pony stories, here is a collection of different versions of the story.
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/12/13/pony-somewhere/
Here, BTW, is my “inspiration” for that metaphor. Got to know crap when you see it.
https://clubschadenfreude.com/2019/12/03/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-not-so-clever-as-a-theist-might-think/
Poor gal, she sure is angry. I kind of had a wry chuckle about hypocrites. Sorry to say it, but most of the human race is actually full of hypocrites, liars, sinners of all sorts. I don’t say that to make anyone feel bad, it’s just important to know what you’re dealing and why we might need a savior in the first place. We people also need a standard to aspire to.
@IB
The claim that most of the human race doesn’t engage in hypocrisy kind of shocked me. Supposedly, hypocrisy is just a Christian thing. It seems the poor gal thinks Christians have a lock on bad behavior. We are the cause of her problems (whatever they might be) I guess.
One of the things I have observed is that a large number of people see themselves as a “good person”. You have probably noted that line in commercials: “you deserve it.” We do like to see ourselves as good and thus deserving, but Christianity makes it clear that only Good is good. Therefore, when we think we are good, equate ourselves with God. At that point we have no hope of repentance.
If a drug addict won’t admit has a drug problem, will he do anything about it? Of course not! It is the same with other sins. If we won’t admit our slavery to sin, then more than likely we will just go looking for someone else to blame for our problems. And sinners do have an abundance of problems.
Tom,
You have more fortitude than I do to blog with militant atheists.
I simple (pray) for them… instead of …allow them to (prey) on my faith.
Regards and goodwill blogging.
I always find it odd when rabid atheists go into “attack mode” against the Chrisitan of whom they address, noting that “they are not angry”…
Well, it’s pretty hard for me to believe there is no anger in their diatribe as it sure sounds angry.
The claim of civil discourse is lost within the ugly personal darts of their words.
I agree with tsalmon above—sometimes we must simply shake the dust from our shoes and move on.
Always a gentleman Tom and that is your gift to the angry ones.
Living out how best to deal with those who not only disagree but who become
petty and angry as their loathing is thinly veiled in what they claim as “conversation.”
Tom,
I’m often struck by the almost evangelical zeal of some atheists in promoting what is essentially a religion of nihilism. It’s reasonable to criticize theism when it reverts to hatred and bigotry toward differing theists, or even toward atheists, but such animosity in favor of nothing in particular (atheism) against something in general (theism) seems to defy the underlying open minded objectivity necessary for the rationalism that atheists claim to substitute for a religion.
I have no need to read any more. You have done the best anyone can here. You have tried to be reasonable. But at some point, you can only do as Jesus said and wipe from your shoes the dust of those who insist on groveling in their own despair, and just move on.
It’s odd that if the world is not a fallen one to the Atheist then it is still a world lacking in some sort of substance of goodness (whatever that could particularly mean to them). Nonetheless, many secularists still try to do their best to raise the world out some sort of recess toward an envisioned utopia.
@Phillip
Utopia as envisioned by Secularists tends to be scary. When we don’t perceive that our fellows belong to God, have rights given to them by our Creator, what reason do we have for self restraint?
Consider the logic. What if this life is all there is? What if we have the power? Does it not make sense to throw off any restraint those who disagree might wish to burden us with?
As I always explain, if we hold to the idea that there is no source for morality and that it is some sort of biological response for the species. As an individual, once I’ve become aware to this point of reasoning it would then be illogical for me to ever act against my own self-interests.
Furthermore, if true, any type of group ideology promising any sort of common good should be thouroughly rejected–that’s the only honest trajectory.