“Gender identity” is an imaginary thing. You don’t believe in God, but you believe in gender identity?”

Oh come on Tom, these can both be called imaginary if you want to travel that road. These people passionately believe and emotionally embrace their changed gender as reality, similar to your commitment and emotional belief in your God or the passion you have for a political organisation.

“Our biological sex is observable, and we cannot change it.”

Granted, however it is not our bodies that decide what we are and how we feel it is our brains. Like I have explained, the social background, childhood, the stress of life, financial scammers, life experiences, political and religious influences and social media are just some of the pressures that modern generations are dealing with. More people are identifying as homosexuals, lesbians, paedophiles and transvestites, also more people are committing suicide or atrocities than they did, all this stuff is due to their mental state often identified by genetic variation and heredity.

“Giving a child drugs or performing a sex change operation on a child is just plain sick. By definition a child is not ready to make such a decision.”

Who is brave enough to stand up in front of a depressed and possibly a suicidal teenager or adult who wants to change gender, or they have the inclination to want to murder a classroom of kids or rape a girl, become a nymphomaniac or desire hard drugs and they are reaching to you to do something about it? Do you tell them to simply snap out of it? Or do you do whatever is medically, socially and physically possible to relieve their pain?

I may also point out that your argument is also relevant regarding the definition of age for a child to make a decision when they are indoctrinated into an adult ideological belief such as religion, often they will be circumcised or de-clitorised.

“What we do know is that a child will most likely grow out of the disorder.”

Most children, 80% according to some older studies I found do not continue gender dysphoria into puberty and this is when personal identities begin to form and develop.

I will acknowledge that criminal capitalistic fundamentalists are at play in many cases just as the cosmetic, drug and abortion businesses and these crooks will urge for the treatments as young as they can prior to puberty however parents will need to give authority for drugs and surgery to take place in most developed countries and we can only hope that they make the right decisions for the love and future of their child.

This stuff sounds idiotic to most of us, however butt implants, lip and breast enhancement, penis enlargement, vagina tightening, nose adjustments and many hundreds of body part surgical reductions or changes take place every day and that sound absolutely idiotic to many people, however it is the sign of the times. One day you will enter a clinic as a young skinny spotty male and come out the other side as Kim Kardashian 😊

“Contrary to your assertions, we have logical reasons to believe in God. Philosophers can provide logical arguments for God’s existence. We also have facts such as the fact that hundreds of people witnessed both Jesus’ execution and return from the dead.”

What you mean is your logical reasons for believing in God is due solely to your faith in the Bible and in philosophers and apologetics who speculate. Claim anything you like, but the fact remains that you have nothing more than faith.

“When someone who exhibits all the features of a particular sex and claims to feel they are a member of the opposite sex, however, we don’t any logical reason to believe them. We also don’t have any reason they won’t change their mind about their feelings. Feelings are not facts. Feelings are not based in logic.”

Of course they also have faith, same as you, complete trust or confidence that they are supposed to have been the opposite sex. Their feelings reflect an emotional state or reaction, just as theists do. Many do not change their minds and it was obviously logical for them to convert to the opposite sex. Nobody knows the mind of another. The sex change or any bodily surgery such as breast reductions or enhancements may alleviate depression, self-harm and various mental issues. These issues are far too complex to just brush off as not based on logic.

“Therefore, why does anyone have to argue that gender identity is imaginary whereas biological sex is reality?”

I don’t, biological sex is a reality, so are mental issues, faulty genes, indoctrination etc. Even animals have shown to be sexually confused.

“Some people need to be institutionalized. If someone wants to commit mass murder to relieve their pain, are you going to give them a gun? Well, what you are proposing is tantamount to that.”

Ok maybe it was not clear, I was suggesting when these people reach out for help you do what is humanly possible to help them through institutions, drugs, psychological help and surgery to name a few.

“but a sex change does not “fix” anything. It just sterilizes the recipient,”

So say you, the same can be said for God. How can you dictate anything you know nothing about? Me an advocate? I understand the huge differences in humans, do you not see this?
I understand that people believe in gods, a flat Earth and in extreme political views, all with a passion. I am a man and if someone discussed becoming a woman with me and I thought I could change their mind I would, however this person’s brain is totally different to mine.

“All parents have the right to instruct their children in their beliefs”

That is quite alright to hide behind your Bill of Rights, the gun nuts use The Second Amendment all the time. Both were written hundreds of years ago without modern knowledge and foresight.
Instructing as in making the children aware of adult ideologies is one thing, indoctrination is another. Manipulating a young undeveloped child’s mind is ethically wrong.

“It is because of people like you that we have a Bill of Rights.”

It is because of people like you we have atheists.

“How do we know what we should do? How do we know what is virtuous and what is not?”

Tom, Aristotle is correct the virtue, happiness and the seeking of truth for ourselves is in all of us, however it takes many different forms, some that would be logical to one person would be directly opposite to someone else. Hindsight is a luxury none of us have and I would say all of us would make at least one major decision they regret during their lifetime of a half dozen decades or more, I know I have made far more than one.

“We experiment and test different beliefs, and we find out what works.”

Not many would do such a thing, I think the first and often the only choice of the theocracy, religion or cult is within the community and traditions of your family. I understand the strong resentment against people who have rejected what is seen as the normal and truthful ideology.

“Should each generation begin the process of establishing what beliefs they should put their faith in all anew?”

Certainly yes, if the religion is as good as the followers always claim, let it stand on it’s own two feet. Not only that, it is the fundamental right of a child to be able to decide what they want to believe when they are of a responsible age, just like an adult.

“Should we burn all our books every 20 years and reestablish Science every 20 years?”

Keep the religious books, afterall they have not changed for thousands of years, however science is re-establishing itself all the time, it changes and adapts as knowledge increases. Mans thirst for knowledge is something that cannot be harnessed unless you live in a suppressive regime such as a theocracy, military rule or a dictatorship.

“That is why we pass on our scientific, political, and religious beliefs to our children. That is why we transfer our culture to our children. We don’t want our children to begin their lives as savages”

Passing this or anything on to children is okay, if it is passed on as an ideological system it is wrong and equates to brain washing or indoctrination. This would take the form of repetitious teaching involving a doctrine, pledges, prayers, quotes and ideals from revered people, spiritual and political readings, meetings and traditions.

“Savages?” I would say this is overly dramatic and simplistic, if born into the law of the African jungle and never saw a human for 30 years maybe we would grow to be wild and savage like some of our criminals, however the powerful human brain has evolved with survival skills and one of those is socialising, exactly as any animal on Earth, therefore we would adapt very quickly to the friendliness and life style of other humans.

“once we believe in the God of the Bible we begin to realize we should do certain things just because He wants us to love our neighbors and protect their God-given rights. Because God is love, love is the chief virtue.”

I agree, your belief in God is exactly what you feel it stands for. Atheists simply understand a god of any kind is not required for us to protect our neighbours support our human rights, our secular freedom and to love each other. Faith in spiritual beings is not required for any part of our lives.

“Children would be indoctrinated in Secular Humanism, which is a religious belief.”

If you do not understand the definition of a religion now Tom you never will. I do not need to reiterate what it means and you have obviously no clues as to the secular and atheist thinking.
You live your life in a strong emotional commitment to your God and a particular religious ideology with the express command to convert atheists. Atheists do not have any such commitments, atheists do not worship or spend any time being subservient to any gods or deities, atheists can believe whatever they like, no books, no doctrine, life goes on without the threat of eternal hell. Atheists do not send their kids to the Hitchens atheist school or the church and Sunday school of secularists for study of atheist doctrine, because none exist, and most atheists do not spend untold time indoctrinating children with anti-religious preaching.

Most kids take a passing interest in their parents and families beliefs until they are old enough to appreciate what it means such as in their mid-teenage years when they can decide on their own. My daughter went to church for certain children’s events with a family of friends over 7 to 12 years of age and eventually she decided it was not for her, I had no concerns, I respected her wishes to go to this church and I know she was not strongly coerced into believing either way. Of course as I am not a worshipper of any kind and her mother was a Catholic she had a young foot in each door.

“The words ideology, brainwashing, and indoctrination don’t mean what you think they mean.”

Pardon, I don’t? If you have a better grasp than the English dictionaries (from England) please enlighten me.

“Indoctrination is instruction in a doctrine, not brutal torture. Indoctrination occurs in almost every classroom.”

“Brutal torture” this I did not say or infer, possibly brain washing is not the correct term here but indoctrination is, and it is about manipulating minds and often involves uncritical and emotional beliefs in ideologies or doctrines. Maybe in the US they indoctrinate children in the classrooms, but in Australia we educate our children with knowledge, if a public school were to indoctrinate children with politics, social issues and religious beliefs they would be sacked and never teach children again.

“So, we teach our children what we know and what we believe about we know; we indoctrinate them in our beliefs.”

Yes teaching and indoctrination are different, indoctrination starts out as teaching but goes much further than that. Respect of your children’s right to make their choices in life will not be helped if they are indoctrinated into an adults beliefs. Some American families make their kids pray every day, at every meal and bedtime, attend Bible studies, weekly church attendance, church events and apply an education at home or at a religious school. Therefore, how can most children ever have the freedom to think and choose for themselves if this is the normal situation from 5 years old until school leaving age? Sure it is good to keep up the numbers in any given church, but is it ethical?

“If we also teach our children to love each other, to take joy in life, how to learn and enjoy the process of discovery, then they can build upon what we have given them.”

Love is a natural human emotion, not exclusive to religions. Joy and happiness does not have to involve spiritual beings, it is natural that kids will find out about God especially as it is so prevalent in your society. If kids are interested they will latch on as they grow up just like anything else, but it must come naturally without pressure, and of course there is always the risk of children rejecting any such beliefs if they are expected to conform.

“Look at what you wrote. You are preaching your doctrine, your system of belief. That is what an ideology is all about. Some ideologies are good. Some are not. Your ideology has problems.”

Wow, you really have it messed up. What doctrine? Ok, no gods exist, that is the total of atheist ideology. Ideology from Google means a system of ideas and ideals. Atheism is not a system of ideas it has a disbelief in gods and is ground zero, the default status of humans, no belief and no comprehension or recognition of gods, but of course it is disbelief in gods when you are confronted by people claiming they are real and the horrible futures in hell are an atheists fate. What problems do we have for having total disbelief in your claims?

“You would indoctrinate other people’s children your way into your religious beliefs”
“Because you are so positive you are so right, you think you have the right to force your religious beliefs upon other people’s children. That sort of unbridled arrogance is why we have wars over religious beliefs. What makes you different from an eighth century Muslim threatening death to unbelievers? You think you are right? So did those Muslims.”

Sorry but I think you have gone off at the rails at the deep end Tom, my ideals have nothing to do with causing religious wars or threatening death to anyone like those ancient Muslims. I really cannot see how you can equate this to anything we are discussing, you like to try and turn the truth around about child indoctrination, but the facts are the facts, this is your desperate attack on atheism in an attempt to defend the indefensible.

“So we have a public school system that now promotes secularism.”

I guess you mean by this that they teach science, real science about biological evolution, global warming, the big bang and the real age of the Earth.

“Protestants saw public schools as the fastest way to deter the spread of Catholic schools. Did that ever backfire!.”

This did not happen in real democratic countries, for example we have governments that provided education in exchange for income taxes, no wonder your political and religious societies are so intertwined and always at each other’s throats. We do not have the problems that you do and that is just as well, because we still have a great education, health and welfare system as do most developed nations that are based on secular values, unlike yourselves.

“Logically, no one can prove God does not exist.”

Just as over thousands of years there is no evidence to establish any gods have ever existed.

“Trying to equate instruction in religious belief with child abuse is just Atheistic extremism. Given the violence of Atheistic regimes, I don’t have high hopes for a peaceful solution. So I pray.”

Yes you have gone full circle in you defence of your faith Tom, communism is the best you can do for your atheist condemnation. If you only could understand that communism and fascism are political systems and atheistic practices were only a small part of the ideology, but theists with knee jerk defences never do. Similar to an atheist reverting to the claims that Hitler was a Catholic and Stalin was raised as a Christian and studied to be a priest if you want to go down that very worn and battered road. I also hope the world stays peaceful.

“your precious dogma of Atheism. It is silly to deny it.”

Please explain what it is, the prevention of child indoctrination is my personal issue, nothing to do with any atheist dogma, some agree but most could not care less, they just simply have a disbelief in gods. Ok have it your way, atheists do understand that theists will believe anything.

“We have over 300 million people here, and this is largely peaceful and prosperous country, but anything that happens here is news. Of course, CNN and the like make it sound far worse than it is.”

What cracks me up, you have more nutcases with guns than the rest of the developed world put together, and after every shooting the solution is more guns, your healthcare is health inequality correlated with income equality and you have been moaning about your broken education system. I could also harp on about how most of the world views certain US political figures, but I won’t because ours are not any better.

“As a Christian, I believe in God. You don’t? You don’t see any proof? And that proves?

Exactly, no evidence no proof, simply nothing that exists outside of the mind, so what else is there?

“As far as I can tell, you don’t want to live in a free country because you are afraid everyone won’t think like you. Pity”

Totally wrong, on the contrary, I simply oppose the people who want to inject their form of religion or political views into everything. The government, the schools and science are three that come to mind. We have plenty of private religious schools; however the creationists want their doctrine in all state schools and are pushing for changing our laws to benefit themselves. We also have people from all kinds of churches knocking on the door, I had a theist at the door some time ago who claimed God grew somebody’s leg a couple of inches in front of her phone camera.

If members of the public do not agree with this kind of theist behaviour I am sure my fundamental rights and as a taxpayer allow me to voice my opinion. Why can’t these theists just keep to themselves if they do not like what they hear? They do not know how lucky they are as most of these flash churches have some of the best real estate due to not having to pay taxes.

“The abolitionists, for example, were Christians.”

I agree Tom, they were good Christians who recognised the immorality and considering almost everyone was a Christian in those days the abolitionists were up against fellow Christians.

“Atheists, who are really just modern Pagans, use state-run schools to spread unbelief.”

Paganism is a term first used in the fourth century by early Christians for people in the Roman Empire who practiced polytheism. (Wikipedia)

You do know what polytheism is I assume.Seems that every label you attach to the people you do not like is completely wrong and then you judge them to be spreading disbelief in the Christian God. If anything you hang out on a limb with what you write, and most of the time your ideas come crashing down.

“Who in their right mind puts politicians in charge of their children’s education?”

The basic skills are required for poor and rich alike and how can people home school when both parents work every day? Politicians do not teach children and are not in charge of it, I would be extremely worried if they did. Qualified teachers teach our children and our education system is basically still free allowing all children to be educated.

“What are the basic tenets of your religious beliefs, what you call Atheism? They involve the things Atheists put before God: getting stuff, enjoying sex, justifying themselves with science, finding security in power of the state, and glorifying themselves.”

Basic tenets? Only one, total disbelief in any gods, anywhere, anytime, anyway.

Getting stuff? What, such as a car, a home or a computer because you must own the same things as atheists, right? In fact the Churches own more than they need, the fancy buildings and huge land areas and no taxes to pay, everyone is greedy Tom, not just atheists.

Sex, is this something Christians are not allowed to do or enjoy? Is it for making babies only, no condoms allowed? Abortion has been going on since time began. I am not saying I agree with wholesale abortion, but it does have its use under certain circumstances.

Science, well yes, we all know the world revolves around scientific discoveries, without it we would still be back in the stone age. We do not have science to prove gods do not exist, we have science because we need it. The Nazis were in fact not scientifically advanced when war broke out, in fact the opposite would be true in many applications. The Soviets we all know were never fielding the most advanced equipment during the war, therefore I do not understand your thinking here.

Finding security in power of the state? I don’t know what you mean, this has nothing to do with targeting atheists, anyone can be corrupt.

Glorifying self, well considering that word is more associated to religiousness I would say that personally I am proud of my daughter and of myself, am I sinning? I do not belong to anyone or any god and my rights are driven by the people, I also have no rights, reasons or desires to dominate the weak. In fact capitalism does that very effectively to all of us.

“Ain’t the Theory of Evolution wonderful?”

Evolution is the change in the characteristics of a species over several generations and relies on the process of natural selection. (Google) This natural selection is a process where the organisms that adapt better to their environment will survive and produce more offspring. Nothing to do with attacking or destroying the weak organisms.