THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LIBERAL AND CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANITY — PART 3

In part 1 of this series we decided to tackle a problem, how do we determine the difference between Liberal and Conservative Christianity? So we picked an issue that clearly divides Liberal and Conservative Christians, same-sex “marriage”, and we decided to use this document as a starting point, Where Christian churches, other religions stand on gay marriage (pewresearch.org).

In part 2 we began the journey. We noted that “Conservative” Judaism ironically supports same-sex “marriage”. Here we will consider an organization that supposedly prohibits same-sex “marriage”, American Baptist Churches USA.

American Baptist Churches has a proud history, and it is worth your time to read the history of the organization.

One item that is especially striking is that in 1845 the Baptist Church split over the issue of slavery. The Northern Baptists (who later renamed themselves American Baptists) rejected slavery. At that time Southern Baptists supported slavery. So the Southern Baptists separated themselves from the Northern Baptists.

1845 is almost 200 hundred years ago. How do American Baptist Churches now perceive themselves? Well, here is their identity statement, Identity Statement (1998): “We Are American Baptists”. As Christians we are suppose to find unity in our identity in Christ, so the purpose of this identity statement is puzzling. Ostensibly, the statement is innocuous, but it contains all kinds of Liberal buzzwords.

Frankly, American Baptist Churches is a relatively Liberal denomination. Consider several articles.

So what is American Baptist Churches stand on homosexuality? American Baptist Churches has a long list of Identity Statements, Policies and Resolutions on its website. Here is the one on Homosexuality. How does that begin?

AMERICAN BAPTIST CHURCHES USA:
RESPONSES/ACTIONS PERTAINING TO HOMOSEXUALITY

There are two Resolutions that address homosexuality. In October 1992, the ABC General Board passed the resolution “American Baptist Resolution on Homosexuality” which states “. . . the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching.” In June 1993, the same board passed a resolution: “American Baptist Resolution Calling for a Dialogue on Human Sexuality.” It states “. . . there are a variety of understandings throughout our denomination on issues of human sexuality such as homosexuality” and calls for a “dialogue concerning these issues.” The resolution encourages a process that “seeks unity and avoids divisiveness.”

A summary history of the subsequent responses and activities related to the issue can be found below. (continued here)

What does this document on homosexuality mean in practice? Nothing. At one time American Baptist Churches struggled against the sin of homosexuality. American Baptists now ignore the sin.

How long has this been a serious concern? Here are a couple of articles that describe how the Leaders of the American Baptist Churches of the Pacific Southwest (renamed Transformation Ministries (see here)) separated from American Baptists over the issue in 2006.

The Human Rights Campaign (an LGBTQ activist organization) says this about American Baptist Churches.

Following more moderate ideals than the ABA and SBC, ABCUSA is considered one of the most inclusive and radical Protestant bodies. At its core, ABCUSA believes in and advocates for autonomy in religious organization and function, religious freedom through expression and cultural/ethnic inclusion within the church. Of its more traditional values, the denomination believes that the Bible is the divinely authoritative guide for serving God, that believers in Christ need to participate in the Lord’s Supper  and full-immersion  or believer’s baptism and that all members have the responsibility to inform others of Christ through evangelism and missionary work.

During 2011, the Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists (AWAB) was given a booth on the Exhibit Hall floor at the ABCUSA Biennial after 20 years of being banned. (from here)

More recently, American Baptist Churches just ignored the issue when a Lesbian couple became the pastors of Calvary Baptist Church in Washington D.C. The Southern Baptist Convention did not.

How does this difference manifest itself? Do a church search.

  • You can find Calvary Baptist in DC (find a church) from the American Baptist Website.
  • You cannot find Calvary Baptist in DC (ChurchSearch) from the Southern Baptist Convention website.

So why does that document we are using, Where Christian churches, other religions stand on gay marriage (pewresearch.org), classify American Baptist Churches as prohibiting same-sex “marriage”? The document was published in December 2015. That might have something to do with it, but the folks at the Pew Research Center probably made a mistake. Even in 2015, American Baptists did not have a clear position. Regardless of what American Baptists say on their website Where Christian churches, other religions stand on gay marriage (pewresearch.org) is out of date now.

So what measure should we use for biblical purity? Is it the Conservatism of a church? No. We have to rely upon our best understanding of the Bible. Consider Jesus’ words, what He said about the respect the Pharisees showed the Word of God.

Matthew 15:1-9 Good News Translation (GNT)

The Teaching of the Ancestors

15 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the Law came from Jerusalem to Jesus and asked him, “Why is it that your disciples disobey the teaching handed down by our ancestors? They don’t wash their hands in the proper way before they eat!”

Jesus answered, “And why do you disobey God’s command and follow your own teaching? For God said, ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ and ‘If you curse your father or your mother, you are to be put to death.’ But you teach that if people have something they could use to help their father or mother, but say, ‘This belongs to God,’ they do not need to honor their father. In this way you disregard God’s command, in order to follow your own teaching. You hypocrites! How right Isaiah was when he prophesied about you!

‘These people, says God, honor me with their words,
    but their heart is really far away from me.
It is no use for them to worship me,
    because they teach human rules as though they were my laws!’”

Because labels like “Liberal” and “Conservative” mean different things to different folk, we can spend an inordinate amount of time just trying to define the terms and decide who is using those terms appropriately. The object, however, is to please God, not man. Therefore, we are best off going directly to the Bible and trying to understand what God wants from us. That includes finding a church that goes directly to the Bible and tries to teach what it says.

Are the churches that go directly to the Bible and try to teach what it says generally what we would call Conservative Christian churches? Yes, but people abuse labels. We can trust the Bible, but we cannot trust people. We have to do our homework.

What does the Bible say about homosexuality? Well, even American Baptist Churches admits that the practice of homosexuality is incompatible Christian teaching, that is, what the Bible says. Therefore, same-sex “marriage” is a sin. We cannot change that just by saying the Bible says homosexuality is incompatible Christian teaching and then acting as if what the Bible says does not matter. We must love the sinner but hate the sin.

 

42 thoughts on “THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LIBERAL AND CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANITY — PART 3

        1. @SLIMJIM

          Should have recognized ABA. Saw it in my reading, but I wasn’t thinking about it.

          The statement below is on this web page: https://www.abaptist.org/beliefs.

          We believe the Biblical definition of marriage is the union between a man and a woman.

          Genesis 2:21-24; Matthew 19:4-6; Mark 10:6-9; 1 Corinthians 7:2-4; Ephesians 5:22-31

          Could not find much else. Perhaps they are tired of debating the matter. Can certainly understand that.

          Liked by 1 person

  1. One can understand why Lee waited until so late in her life to release this book that tarnished the image of one of America’s most beloved fictional characters
    Heh, I just learned something new (from you). I didn’t realize Harper Lee was alive when this manuscript was released. Always thought they found it after her death (I have heard from several people that it is almost unreadable, so I’ve never made the attempt).

    I was at a blog site recently (anonymously) and shouted down as a lunatic leftist ‘tard after asserting that it was unlikely 99.999 percent of Americans would all be dead if ebola found its way here.
    I don’t want ebola here, and I think we dodged a huge bullet in 2016 for many reasons I won’t get into. But still, 99.999 percent is a lot considering we have ground zero for comparison.
    I’m a leftist ebola lover. And ‘tard (repeat 50 times, like something right out of Ideocracy)
    So, sure, there are imbeciles all around.

    You might enjoy reading Michael Totten.
    He’s a lefty (I started following him when he was running around the middle east…before it became so dangerous as to be off limits after our “help”…after Hillary took charge of the State Department)
    This is his opinion on Oregon politics: https://www.city-journal.org/html/fractured-west-15611.html

    Like

      1. @Liz

        I deleted tsalmon’s comment by accident when I was responding to it.

        Use a laptop with a touchpad. Hate it so I use a mouse instead, but the mouse doesn’t deactivate the touchpad, and the worse than useless thing is positioned where it is too easily touched by accident.

        I will have to do a little research and see if there some way to turn of the touchpad.

        Like

        1. Liz,

          I’ve read “To Kill a Mockingbird” about a half dozen times over the years. Beloved Alabama Governor Albert Brewer, now diseased, used the book to teach ethics law while I was in law school. To say that “To Kill a Mockingbird” is one of the most influential American classic novels would be an understatement.

          Lee met a good deal of disagreement from her family and friends when she decided to publish the sequel. Some thought it would ruin her legacy.

          Watchman is very different from Mockingbird. Watchman has much deeper personal and social psychological character development than Mockingbird, but it lacks the same suspense and tension. It’s almost like two different people wrote the novels (adding to rumors that her lifelong friend, Truman Capote, influenced Mockingbird). In some ways, despite the new novel being a sequel, it’s almost like comparing apples and oranges. I think that one could make an argument though that the second book is the deeper and more complex of the two.

          Maybe this is why some people find it unreadable. These may be the same people that would find Faulkner or Eudora Welty unreadable.

          PS

          Tom accidentally erased my comment?!? And I waxed so brilliant (at least that will be my claim now that it is erased from the cyber record). 😉

          Liked by 1 person

          1. Agreed “To Kill a Mockingbird” was a masterpiece.
            I always thought of Lee as an example of an author who just wrote the one really phenomenal book, and then did a mic drop.

            Liked by 1 person

          2. Ha! Good way to put it Liz.

            Imagine if Picasso had only painted Guernica and just walked away? Worse, imagine if that painting was acknowledged a masterpiece for the ages, and more than a century later, he decided to paint a sequel? How would people freak out? Boggles the mind.

            If you read “Go Set a Watchman” and you like it, I might also recommend “The Friend” by Sirgid Nunez. It has a similar profound social psychological flavor, and it is about a dog.

            Sorry Tom. Didn’t mean to turn your blog into a book club.

            Like

          3. Yes, wonderful, one of my favorite proms:

            “Let me live in a house by the side of the road
            Where the race of men go by-
            The men who are good and the men who are bad,
            As good and as bad as I.
            I would not sit in the scorner’s seat
            Nor hurl the cynic’s ban-
            Let me live in a house by the side of the road
            And be a friend to man.”

            Sometimes a work of art reverberates in our souls like nothing else, and diverse hearts magically, earnestly, beat in time.

            Liked by 1 person

  2. The leader of the Republican Party is separating families and traumatizing children at the border with horrific unsanitary and crowded conditions. Still you say that what separates a so-called “conservative Christian” from a supposedly “liberal Christian” is the greater intensity of a conservative’s queer outrage at the victimless violation of certain arcane, mostly Old Testament, sexual customs and taboos. 🙃. Of the hundreds of rules in the Bible, this is the one you would divide the Body of Christ into petty, bickering partisan tribes over? How much you decide to be disturbed by which consenting adults are having sex with who in their committed, loving relationships?

    According to Jesus, love (not hate) defines the primary Commandments, and it is upon the Commandments to love that all the other hundreds of rules, customs, taboos and traditions depend for their theological foundation and their relevance. The interrelated Commandments to love are the spirit of every law, the profound quality that gives every other scriptural law or rule or custom any eternal and universal relevance, as well as where we look to prioritize a given rule’s violation in the multitude of sins from the most venial to the most horrific one’s which Jesus defined as causing suffering of “the least of these”.

    If Mathew 22:40 stood alone in scripture as a single statement by Jesus, it still would give us a profound guidance to how we interpret God’s Will, but every Christian knows that love’s foundational message is thematic throughout what Jesus said and did in the Gospels and what the Apostles preached.

    A “Christian” is someone who, with faith and God’s grace, humbly and actively practices the impossible art of loving God and all his neighbors (enemies, strangers, family and friends) as Jesus perfectly taught us and showed us to love. If we call ourselves fellow followers of Christ (and I have no doubt that we both sincerely believe that is what we are doing), then we are trying and failing and sometimes barely succeeding in practicing God’s love.

    I have no idea what God actually thinks about someone else’s sexual persuasion and practices. Because I am not gay, it’s easy for me to avoid this sin (if it actually even is a sin rather than just an outdated sexual taboo). Where is the failure to love as we should, as Jesus perfectly taught and showed us to love, relevant in any Christian’s failure to stand on some partisan soap box and condemn the most harmless of other peoples’ sexual sins vehemently enough to suit the strange homophobic fixation that you are placing on this one supposed sexual practice? If tolerance for the most harmless foibles of our fellow sinners defines the so-called “liberal Christian”, then Jesus must have been just such a leaving-stones-unthrown liberal, don’t you think?

    Ah well, I guess I’ve beat this poor homophobic horse to death, so I’ll leave it alone for a while. Proceed to excoriate me with your superior knowledge of all the sex acts that the Bible says God wants conservatives to stay up all night hating. As usual, thanks for letting me participate. Love you brother.

    Like

    1. The leader of the Republican Party is separating families and traumatizing children at the border with horrific unsanitary and crowded conditions.

      Ah yes, Trump invites them in, cages them up, and then won’t let them leave!!!
      I guess the best way to love these folks (and our citizens) would be to just let them in and have no restrictions. That would improve things for everyone and spread the love…
      Or, let’s quintuple the number of resources expended and improve things to the point so many people come in everything is again crowded and families are separated and “traumatized”…but we have 5 times the number and 5 times the cost.
      Very loving.
      The difference between conservative and liberal Christians?
      Off the top of my head the answer is:
      Results. Conservatives seem to have a far better understanding of incentives and how they work.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Liz,

        So you support traumatizing children, even babies, as a supposedly Christian “incentive” punishment to deter a refugee crisis? I guess you’re right. There is a difference, but I honestly don’t think that Christ has any part in it.

        This is a tough situation, a humanitarian disaster with numerous causes and factors. Trump inherited it as much as he is exasperates it. The fact that we proclaim ourselves a Christian tribe and then wall out the desperate invading others isn’t what actually makes us Christian. How we handle situations exactly like this one is what defines us as a nation of any kind of followers of Christ at all.

        Like

        1. @tsalmon

          I have no idea what God actually thinks about someone else’s sexual persuasion and practices.

          There is nothing mysterious about it. However, you do have to read the whole Bible.

          I have heard it said Democrats lack any sense of irony, and you are illustrating that perfectly. Think about what Matthew 22:40 says.

          Matthew 22:40 English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
          40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

          That verse does not excuse us from reading the rest of the Bible. In fact, unless we read the entire Bible, we will not appreciate the significance of that verse, and that fact is implied by the verse.

          Take the time to read Romans 1:18-32. That will give you a good idea of what God thinks of homosexuality.

          Homosexuality is a perverse form of fornication. If you don’t have a problem with fornication, you probably won’t have a problem with homosexuality, but the Bible clearly does.

          You obviously need to stop getting your news from limited resources. You also need to think the problem through. Our “concentration camps” are so awful that people are turning themselves in so that they can be incarcerated in them?

          The main thing our government does is maintain order. When it does not do at least that, we need to replace our government.

          Proverbs 6:30-31 Good News Translation (GNT)
          30 People don’t despise a thief if he steals food when he is hungry; 31 yet if he is caught, he must pay back seven times more—he must give up everything he has.

          If we let people get away with stealing, no one will have anything. If we let anyone who wants to become an American citizen, we will lose the culture that makes it desirable to be an American. Why would Democrats want that? Take a look at California.

          Like

        2. Well, the way it works is…one assesses the costs to gains and determines the best course of action that results in the best outcome.
          So, for example, the conservative might say, “gee…this sucks…what is the better way to cause less suffering while not incentivizing behaviors that will cause more suffering and worse outcomes?”
          The liberal just says, “you support traumatizing children and babies!” (example here) and their solutions lead to worse suffering but this is an irrelevancy because virtue signaling is far more important than results (results which would bring actual lower levels of suffering).

          Liked by 1 person

          1. Okay, I’ll add that wasn’t quite fair. I’m sure many liberals are sincere. I believe you are sincere too. Sincerity is nice, but results matter far more. Being sincere and advocating for policies that cause more suffering is not loving. This applies to pretty much everything from illegal immigration to subsidized teen pregnancy to advocacy of homosexuality.

            Liked by 1 person

          2. I should add also that many are not sincere.
            The owner of Masterpiece Cake shop has been sued again because he refused to make a cake for a person who wanted to celebrate his/her/its gender transformation surgery. Do you think this was just some random happenstance, or was he targeted specifically? I think everyone already knows the answer. A lot of these people are truly evil.

            Liked by 1 person

          3. Liz,

            I appreciate that you think I’m sincere even if you seem to think I’m some sort of moon eyed Pollyanna. Because I know something of your background and your husband’s service to the country (actually, I think, if you’re like my wife, your sacrifice was probably greater), I think you are sincere too, and I certainly don’t think you’re some kind of cynical ogre.

            Given what you know about military service, do you seriously think that I spent 20 years as a line officer and combat pilot in Navy, three years in law school, four years as a litigator, and 18 years as an airline pilot (much of which I was a union officer, negotiator and committee chairman) and yet I’m naive about cost/benefits analysis and necessity of compromise under the pressure of intractable problems.

            The way this humanitarian crisis is being mismanaged at every single level by “acting” officials and without any sign of an actual policy or a strategy would be criminal if a military person were involved. Inhumane cruelty is not a strategy, it is not a policy.

            I believe in love because I have a faith in Jesus that it is the basis of all morality, but I am also practical enough to have been willing to kill people if it were needed to carry out the most loving and moral strategy for the the good of my beloved country against an evil opponent. This is not one of those cases.

            Like

          4. @tsalmon

            Every time we have discussed this subject you have failed to offer a well defined solution. That does not put you in a good position to criticize.

            Trump is tied up in knots by the law and the courts. Most of Congress, because our greedy elites demand cheap labor, don’t want a humane solution. They want cheap labor, and Democrats want cheap votes they can buy. Hence Trump had to force Mexico to control its southern border because he couldn’t control our border.

            That sound cynical? For hundreds of years the South upheld slavery, and the robber barons tried to do them one better with wage slavery (leading to labor unions).

            People will do the most outrageous things, and they find a way to convince themselves they are in the right.

            Like

          5. Tom,

            You’re not offering a solution. You’re deflecting blame as an excuse for Trump’s failed leadership and incompetence. That’s fine – it’s not your job to have a “solution” and you’re not qualified to come up with any “well defined solution even if there were one, which I don’t think there is in situations like this.

            Scientists find perfect straight line solutions to technical problems (a trajectory to the Moon or a payload problem for example) by using well defined rules and precise mathematics. Leaders, in these complex multinational situations, by contrast, have resources, policies and strategies that are adaptable to new situations with a manifold of competing factors subject to compromise. Leaders are responsible for those they serve and are accountable for their failures as well as their successes. Leaders surround themselves with competency and they don’t scapegoat and deflect to everyone in sight when they fail. Leaders demonstrate integrity.

            When I had a complex mission or a court case or an inflight emergency, I relied on my training, my experience and the resources that I had at hand to carry out the mission. When something went wrong (which it often did) I adapted and compromised with the confidence that failure was not an option. I didn’t throw up my hands and blame everyone else around me.

            Trump took a difficult humanitarian crisis and turned it into a moral and practical disaster. His incompetence took a bad situation and made it worse.

            I’m not the President. I don’t have to have perfect solutions or even a decent strategy. He does. He’s responsible. He’s accountable. Not me. And he’s quite obviously screwing it up. We can only hope that his lack of every leadership skill doesn’t blunder us into another stupid war before we can vote him out of office or impeach him, but I don’t have much confidence in that. Do you?

            Like

          6. @tsalmon

            Scientists do not find perfect straight line solutions. We cannot even go to Mars in a straight line. It would take too much energy to go to Mars in a straight line. That is why the orbital trajectory of a spacecraft follows a curve.

            We cannot come up with perfect solutions. We can only achieve optimal solutions, solutions that require us to accept imperfections, tradeoffs that involve cost, time, payload, risks of failure, death… Otherwise, we can do nothing.

            Do I have a solution for the immigration problem? Yes. A perfect solution? No.

            I support President Trump and the solutions he has offered. I support the wall, e-verify, punishing employers who hire illegals, merit-based immigration,…. I support sending the people already in our country illegally and who try to enter our country illegally back to where they came from. I support a messy, imperfect solution.

            If you won’t accept the fact we have to control our borders and refuse entry to the vast majority of these would-be immigrants, you cannot pose a solution that makes any sense, and you know it. All you can do tell the rest of us how much you care. That is called virtue signaling.

            We cannot solve a problem by blaming the people who are trying to solve that problem for the fact the problem exists. That is, it is silly to blame Trump. Immigration law and the tradeoffs involved have been with us since our nation since its founding. Even the Constitution had to deal with immigration because of issues like slavery. Even the Constitution is messy. Because of greed, the founders could only end the importation of slaves, and they had to give slave states three fifths of a vote for their slaves.

            Trump is not God. He can only implement messy solutions, and he is trying to fix a system that has been deliberately sabotaged by special interests for decades. Moreover, he is fighting a highly partisan news media that makes up stuff and even blames him for things previous presidents, especially Obama, made worse. If you took the time to do a little research, you would know that.

            Like

          7. We are a country lately full of people who have opinions about everything, but actual knowledge, experience and wisdom about nothing. You have “done a little research.” Congrats! That qualifies you to be Trump’s next “acting” head of every cabinet position. But watch out because when he provides you with no coherent integrated policy or strategy or resources, then you’ll get the blame and he’ll whine that he is surrounded by knaves and fools and that everyone is out to get him.

            Like

          8. @tsalmon

            I would be proud to serve Trump in such a capacity, and I thank you for thinking so highly of me. However, I don’t think that highly of myself. Even though I have only made a cursory review of Trump’s appointments, I am quite certain I am not as qualified as any of the people he has already appointed.

            If personnel is policy, then Trump is doing well. Here is an example, Ken Cuccinelli. Cuccinelli was Virginia’s Attorney General. He is now the acting director of the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/cuccinelli-named-acting-director-uscis). I have met the guy, and he is sharp.

            Like

          9. The way this humanitarian crisis is being mismanaged at every single level by “acting” officials and without any sign of an actual policy or a strategy would be criminal if a military person were involved. Inhumane cruelty is not a strategy, it is not a policy.

            Let’s remember a few short months ago folks on the left were saying there was no illegal immigration crisis. Then California enacted laws to encourage illegal immigration and prevent federal enforcement of the existing laws. Then the left screamed about cages, told the masses they were welcome again and again and again and…shocka people are responding to incentives. Now Congress won’t pass legislation to allow funding. But hey it’s all the president’s fault.

            Let’s look at some non-immigration related, military related things.
            Government housing: I don’t know if you lived on base housing (or were there for the privatization of government housing…one of the worst decisions ever, but that’s a topic in and of itself…start here https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-military-maintenance/) but I digress…
            I had to sign a disclaimer for the lead paint and asbestos still in our home. I had to *gasp* do my own lawn and home maintenance! Or we were liable and culpable.
            Contrast this with other government housing where if lead and asbestos were still on the properties or made to pick up after themselves CNN would be screaming bloody murder about “slavery” and residents would be suing the state.

            I had a friend who taught in an inner city highschool. Her husband was USAF and she couldn’t get an ultrasound from the military doctor, but her students, about a third of whom were pregnant, would compare monthly ultrasound photos from taxpayer funded dollars. They also had free childcare to look forward to later (also at taxpayer expense). We lived in a town once where the military people couldn’t get their children in the CDC or childcare off base because so many high school students had free slots there were none left for military.
            I could go on for a long while.
            Incentives.
            I have a solution….curb incentives for illegal immigration.
            Build a wall, tell them they’re not welcome to deluge our borders.
            They can apply for asylum/immigration at the US embassies in their respective countries.
            I have an uncle who was a baby when he entered Ellis Island long ago with his parents and grandparents. He had chicken pox. They said he couldn’t enter, so the grandparents took him home and there they stayed. They didn’t demand entry and storm the border.

            Liked by 1 person

          10. “Let’s remember a few short months ago folks on the left were saying there was no illegal immigration crisis.”

            So, are you saying that if we can just define the problem as something that it is not, then any cruelty is acceptable? We still don’t have an “illegal immigration crisis”. We have a refugee crisis, or in other words, a humanitarian crisis.

            If Glaciers suddenly swept across Canada as a Climate Change extreme event, and desperate Canadians started pouring over our Northern border, would we proclaim an illegal immigration crisis? Would we spend hundreds of billions building a stupid wall across the Northern frontier that would not solve the problem anyway, but instead would just cause more suffering and death as Canadian families sought the most dangerous and chaotic routes around it? Would we separate these supposedly criminal Canadian families, lock up their children in internment camps without any consideration of their sanitation, their safty or the unnecessary trauma our government is causing to innocent babies because we believe such blatant cruelty will create just the right “incentive” to keep these perpetrators from committing their terrible misdemeanor crimes of trespassing our land to flee death and deprivation? Would we violate our own statutes, international treaties and values to perpetuate such lawlessness for our policy of maximum oppression?

            Or would we define the problem for what it is, take risks, and be willing to compromise and make sacrifice in the name of human decency?

            The Central American humanitarian crisis is difficult, long brewing situation caused by everything from Climate Change to our nation’s insatiable addiction to narcotics to failed states, the cause of which goes back to hundreds of years of Cold War and colonial rule. But to find the best policies of of many imperfect options, let’s at least start calling the situation what is is instead of pretending that we can be cruel to families and children because they are all dangerous criminals.

            Like

          11. The Central American humanitarian crisis is difficult, long brewing situation caused by everything from Climate Change to our nation’s insatiable addiction to narcotics to failed states, the cause of which goes back to hundreds of years of Cold War and colonial rule. But to find the best policies of of many imperfect options, let’s at least start calling the situation what is is instead of pretending that we can be cruel to families and children because they are all dangerous criminals.

            And here we have the same rationalizations of other failed policy ideas.
            “Hey! These are poor refugees storming our borders, how can you be so heartless?!?”
            (followed by not-to-thinly veiled implication it’s all about racism. After all, what would we do if these were Canadians?!?!)
            “Hey! These are just poor students who want to earn their degrees…they can’t do so unless we fun childcare, you heartless bastards!
            “Hey! If we don’t pay for prenatal care these poor indigent babies will suffer!”
            and on and on and on.
            “Hey! If we don’t allow this mother to dress her boy like a girl and dance around for grown men to ogle, he/she/it might grow up to be fearful! We need to cheer this on!”

            This is why we have entire populations responding to perverse incentives.

            Liked by 1 person

          12. I watched (for the few minutes I could stomach it) an interview of a South American (can’t remember the country now) grandmother who ostensibly saw her grandson “in a cage”. She exclaimed that he was being “treated like an animal!” The most obvious question is….why doesn’t he go home to her? If I were in a position that was so terrible my kids and grandkids were forced to flee the country, I wouldn’t be complaining about it on television, I’d just be glad they were alive. And the grandmother was fat.
            Good Lord.
            AOC says her Puerto Rican grandfather died due to US negligence after the hurricane? I know the people who ran those airlifts, and they didn’t get a break for two months straight. The most obvious question is…why didn’t AOC help her grandfather?

            Like

          13. Know how many Puerto Ricans I know who didn’t just sit on their hands and demand government benefits but went back home to help their families?
            Basically every Puerto Rican I know well (maybe 30?) went home to help, and none of them blamed Trump. AOC, by contrast, campaigned in her expensive suits and complained.

            Like

          14. “Scientists do not find perfect straight line solutions. We cannot even go to Mars in a straight line. It would take too much energy to go to Mars in a straight line. That is why the orbital trajectory of a spacecraft follows a curve.”

            Tom, you’re so literal that you prove my point. I wasn’t referring to a literal straight line. I was referring to liniar straight line problem solving verses strategic thinking.

            You used to be a pretty good chess player. Think about a chess strategy on a world size chess board verses simply connecting the dots to get from point A to point B. Think about how, if you change one thing, the position and possibilities with every other piece on the board changes. Think about blowback. Think about how, if all the other millions of players change something, then you have to change and adapt as well. Think about the fact that there are a myriad of known and unknown possibilities, intended and unintended consequences, some of which can and need to be predicted and some of which cannot be imagined. Think about the fact that there are rarely perfect solutions, but instead there is only an expert analysis of imperfect choices that each carry there own risk/benefit possibilities, and that all the experts who actually know what they are talking about may not agree so you also have to figure out who you can to figure out who you can trust and build loyalty.

            Any idiot can have an opinion and advance demagogic platitudes as grand solutions: “Build a big beautiful wall.” “Zero tolerance.” “They are all drug smugglers and rapists who deserve what they get.” “Make America Great Again!” A fool can blame the world, appoint temporary incompetents with no vetting and then thrown them under the bus when he finds out they are as corrupt, demagogic and self serving as he is.

            It takes expertise, experience, integrity and yes, wisdom, to just start to nudge a whole interconnected planet in positive directions. Instead, we have Trump leading us.

            And you want to be one of his ignorant lackeys? Why don’t you become the head of transportation. He wanted his personal pilot to get that job. You could solve Middle East peace, but you’re not related to Trump so that job of course already went to one super qualified enough to be Trump’s son-in-Law. If you were a some sort of corporate lobbyist, you could help him drain the Washington swamp of everyone except the special interest swamp rats. An overconfidence and lack of humility in your own opinions about everything may help, so good luck. 😆

            Like

          15. @tsalmon

            Funny! You used all those words, and you didn’t say anything.

            Consider this blarney.

            It takes expertise, experience, integrity and yes, wisdom, to just start to nudge a whole interconnected planet in positive directions. Instead, we have Trump leading us.

            You vote for people who in the name of human “rights” just can’t wait to give away other people’s money so everything can be “free”. At the same time you complain about the cruelty of enforcing our borders so we won’t be deluged by the world’s poor. Either of these causes alone is just foolishness. Together they are blatantly untenable. They make no sense economically. Yet you have the gall to promote strategic thinking and condemn cruelty when you are just pursuing obviously false promises.

            Like

          16. Liz,

            If only the whole world and all it’s problems could really be explained with just a bevy if salacious anecdotes?

            Tom’s biggest criticism of me for years is that I am too much of a realist, too much of a pragmatist, not that I am an idealist.

            Why do you think everybody can simply be stereotyped into one of two tribes and then dismissed. I can see how it is a reassuring world view but it is not the actual world. This illusion of our own lack of prejudice, however, is definitely one of the major problems. Of course, one of the sources of this crisis, as well as many of Trump’s trumped up rage fests is xenophobic. You think that after millions of years of genocide and enslavement, the humans in America just yesterday stopped discriminating based on race, religion and ethnicity? You seriously don’t think that Trump is getting away with this cruelty because he is doing it to brown Central Americans? Who is being the Pollyanna now? 😉

            Like

          17. Tom,

            I have the “gall” to promote strategic thinking because you have fabulous men of straw?

            Did you forget? I’m to actually be dismissed because I don’t have the “gall” to pretend that I have all the solutions.

            I’m just pointing to the obvious reality that Trump has no strategy, no competent experts, and no integrity. In short, I’m saying that Trump is obviously not a good leader.

            Please make up your mind which “gall” you would accuse me of having too much of and why.

            BTW, I had my gall bladder out years ago. Perhaps Liz would know whether that means that I actually have too much or too little gall now. 😏

            Ok, we’re circling the real issue now so we gone past the point of productive debate, and I’ve got other things to do. Always stimulating though.

            Like

          18. @tsalmon

            When you complained about my “assumption” that I appeared to think literally meant a straight line to Mars, you should have considered the fact that you had had your gall bladder literally removed. Still, you still have too much gall.

            What is Conservatism about? Thinking “I” have all the solutions? Conservatives want a limited government because they have all the solutions? Sorry, but thinking we know more than we do is the starting point for Socialism.

            Why does the notion we have all the solutions that lead to Socialism. All that is required what you call straight-line thinking. Oh! You are poor? You need money? Well, let’s rob someone who is rich.

            You were off topic at the start, but this is just a blog. Have fun!

            Like

          19. If only the whole world and all it’s problems could really be explained with just a bevy if salacious anecdotes?

            The point of the “salacious anecdotes” is merely to illustrate people respond to incentives. There are a “bevy” of them because the pattern is pretty clear.

            Liked by 1 person

  3. “Same sex marriage” is not so much a sin as an oxymoron, if we hold to how the Bible defines marriage; it cannot exist. So let’s call it same sex union or compact. Whatever it is, marriage it is not!

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Same-sex “marriage” is definitely an oxymoron. If two consenting adults “play” with each other outside the bounds of marriage, that is fornication. Whether they have some kind of compact doesn’t make any difference, it is still wrong.

      Like

Comments are closed.

Blog at WordPress.com.

Up ↑

cookiecrumbstoliveby

Life through the eyes of "cookie"

Rudy u Martinka

What the world needs now in addition to love is wisdom. We are the masters of our own disasters.

Theo-Logis

Supplying the Light of Love

Level_Head

Welcome to Conservative commentary and Christian prayers from Gainesville, Virginia. That's OUTSIDE the Beltway.

The Recovering Legalist

Living a Life of Grace

Write Side of the Road

writing my way through motherhood

Freedom Through Empowerment

Taking ownership of your life brings power to make needed changes. True freedom begins with reliance on God to guide this process and provide what you need.

The Lions Den

"Blending the colorful issues of life with the unapologetic truth of scripture, while adding some gracious ferocity.”

In My Father's House

"...that where I am you may be also." Jn.14:3

Allallt in discussion

Debate and discussion: Reasonable, rational and fair

PUMABydesign001's Blog

“I hope we once again have reminded people that man is not free unless government is limited. There’s a clear cause and effect here that is as neat and predictable as a law of physics: as government expands, liberty contracts.” Ronald Reagan.

TLP

Finding Clear and Simple Faith

Amatopia

Author Alexander Hellene - Sci-Fi - Urban Fantasy - Fantasy - Culture - Art - Entertainment - Music - Fun

John Branyan

something funny is occurring

Because The Bible Wasn't Written In English

Welcome to Conservative commentary and Christian prayers from Gainesville, Virginia. That's OUTSIDE the Beltway.

Fr. Pietraszko's Corner

Discovering Truth and Love

Victory Girls Blog

Welcome to Conservative commentary and Christian prayers from Gainesville, Virginia. That's OUTSIDE the Beltway.

Through Ink & Image

...Pursuing a God Inspired Life

D. Patrick Collins

liberating christian thought

Healthy Mind Ministry

Sharing the Gospel message of hope, strength, love, and peace through Jesus Christ to those who are hurting in their soul or spirit. This is the mission of Healthy Mind Ministry

Conservative Government

Welcome to Conservative commentary and Christian prayers from Gainesville, Virginia. That's OUTSIDE the Beltway.

The Night Wind

Welcome to Conservative commentary and Christian prayers from Gainesville, Virginia. That's OUTSIDE the Beltway.

In Saner Thought

"It is the duty of every man, as far as his ability extends, to detect and expose delusion and error"..Thomas Paine

SGM

Faithful servants never retire. You can retire from your career, but you will never retire from serving God. – Rick Warren

Communio

"Fear Not, Only Believe." Mk. 5:36

All Along the Watchtower

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you ... John 13:34

The Bull Elephant

Conservative and libertarian news, analysis, and entertainment

Always On Watch: Semper Vigilans

Welcome to Conservative commentary and Christian prayers from Gainesville, Virginia. That's OUTSIDE the Beltway.

The Family Foundation Blog - The Family Foundation

Welcome to Conservative commentary and Christian prayers from Gainesville, Virginia. That's OUTSIDE the Beltway.

Dr. Luis C. Almeida

College Professor

praythroughhistory

Heal the past. Free the present. Bless the future.

Dr. Lloyd Stebbins

Deliberate Joy

Lillie-Put

The place where you can find out what Lillie thinks

He Hath Said

is the source of all wisdom, and the fountain of all comfort; let it dwell in you richly, as a well of living water, springing up unto everlasting life

quotes and notes and opinions

from a Biblical perspective

partneringwitheagles

WHENEVER ANY FORM OF GOVERNMENT BECOMES DESTRUCTIVE OF THESE ENDS (LIFE,LIBERTY,AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS) IT IS THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO ALTER OR ABOLISH IT, AND TO INSTITUTE A NEW GOVERNMENT...

nebraskaenergyobserver

The view from the Anglosphere

bluebird of bitterness

The opinions expressed are those of the author. You go get your own opinions.

Pacific Paratrooper

This WordPress.com site is Pacific War era information

Running The Race

Hebrews 12:1

THE RIVER WALK

Daily Thoughts and Meditations as we journey together with our Lord.

atimetoshare.me

My Walk, His Way - daily inspiration

Truth in Palmyra

By Wally Fry

Kingdom Pastor

Living Freely In God's Kingdom

%d bloggers like this: