WHY DEBATE?

How did this get started? Well, ColorStorm wrote a post that indicates he is a bit hurt, Why mock that which we do not understand? seems to have written his post in response to Electronic sin and The Day The Earth Stood Still by Running the Race. Since I would prefer to leave this tempest in a teapot, I am not going to take sides. Nevertheless, I thought it might be a good idea to initiate a Christian debate on debate, that is, what is the point of debate?

Where to start? What looks like some good, Christian ground-rules for debate? Lately I have been listening to R. C. Sproul and this subject came up, Why Apologetics?. So I borrowed some material.

Where does the Bible say we need to be decent apologists for Christianity? Here is the Bible passage most cited to give a reason for apologetics.

1 Peter 3:14-16 New King James Version (NKJV)

14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you are blessed. “And do not be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled.” 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed.

Note the object for giving a defense. Did Peter say our defense would persuade anyone? No. Peter wanted the integrity of our defense to shame the accusers of Christians.

Here is what Reformation theologian, John Calvin, observed.

Still, however, it is preposterous to attempt, by discussion, to rear up a full faith in Scripture. True, were I called to contend with the craftiest despisers of God, I trust, though I am not possessed of the highest ability or eloquence, I should not find it difficult to stop their obstreperous mouths; I could, without much ado, put down the boastings which they mutter in corners, were anything to be gained by refuting their cavils. But although we may maintain the sacred Word of God against gainsayers, it does not follow that we shall forthwith implant the certainty which faith requires in their hearts. Profane men think that religion rests only on opinion, and, therefore, that they may not believe foolishly, or on slight grounds, desire and insist to have it proved by reason that Moses and the prophets were divinely inspired. But I answer, that the testimony of the Spirit is superior to reason. For as God alone can properly bear witness to his own words, so these words will not obtain full credit in the hearts of men, until they are sealed by the inward testimony of the Spirit. (from here)

What Peter wrote and Calvin explained is that apologetics is useful for stopping the mouths of the obstreperous. Observe that Calvin is talking about the beliefs of Christians about holy scripture. He is not talking about debating other subjects. Nevertheless, we can just as stubborn about our beliefs with respect to other subjects. Therefore, in response to a heckler, I left this comment.

March 10, 2019 at 12:28 pm

The irony of you lecturing ColorStorm on this subject…….

When we don’t want to be convinced, we cannot be convinced.

Proof” doesn’t always convince, does it? A patient thought he was dead. His psychiatrist stood him before a mirror and had him repeat many times, “Dead men don’t bleed.” Then the doctor stuck a pin in the patient’s finger and made it bleed a little. “See?” the doctor said triumphantly. The patient exclaimed, “Yes, I see — dead men bleed after all!” (www.smithvillechurch.org/html/upbraided_for_unbelief.html)

There are more elaborate versions of the joke. In some the fellow who ridiculously believes he is dead is even taken to a morgue and shown a dead body that doesn’t bleed, but no proof (or evidence) is sufficient for him.

That’s apparently why God only requires Christians to instruct their children and spread the Gospel. We can provide evidence for the Gospel, but we cannot prove something to another person’s satisfaction, not when they refuse to believe.

So what about ColorStorm’s refusal to believe that the earth is a sphere orbiting the sun? Since that matter has no eternal significance, it doesn’t merit much concern. The fate of your soul, however, merits great concern. Still, whether you can be convinced is ultimately between you and God. Therefore, there is a point when debate serves no purpose.

So at what point should debate stop — should our obstreperous mouths be stopped? What keeps us from stopping when we should stop? Pride is the source of the vast majority of our sins. I must admit I enjoy hearing myself talk (and seeing what I write), and I am greatly disappointed IN OTHERS when they don’t agree with ME. Prideful fools will continue to march even after angels have beat a hasty retreat. That is, it takes a great deal of effort to rein myself in, and I wish I had been more successful. I have learned that I usually have less reason to regret my silence than my words.

Only the bitter fruit of long experience has taught me that others don’t see my brilliance as I want them to see it. I may think others need to hear or read my words, but others often don’t. Therefore, before I speak or write I have spent most of my life learning the hard way I need to think more first. Now I am learning to pray more. Will God approve? Even if God approves, does my audience actually need to hear my words or read what I have to say? Or does my pride just insist I say what I want to say? Hard to tell sometimes. When our pride demands a voice, who is completely objective?

84 thoughts on “WHY DEBATE?

  1. “So what about ColorStorm’s refusal to believe that the earth is a sphere orbiting the sun? Since that matter has no eternal significance, it doesn’t merit much concern. The fate of your soul, however, merits great concern. Still, whether you can be convinced is ultimately between you and God. Therefore, there is a point when debate serves no purpose.”

    – Citizen Tom

    Really? Seems the matter warrants quite a bit of concern. Colorstorm was concerned enough about it to call someone out on their blog then write a ranty and quite silly post about it on his. His first comment on his post he states just how important that it is. He also says he has true science on his side and everyone who disagrees with him are flat out wrong.

    If you are to be consistent, Tom, you need to tell Colorstorm to cool his jets about the Earth being flat and focus more on evangelism.

    From what I gather reading Colorstorm’s blog, his chief concerns are razing about how great he is nd ranting about how misguided those who disagree with him are. I would say he is a horrible example and that he is doing more damage than good to the cause of Christ.

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  2. I like this post Tom. We definitely could all use a strong dose of humility.

    I’m often questioned by my atheist friends how I can believe all the superstitious nonsense that the Catholic Church puts out. (Fellow Christians sometimes ask me the same thing). In turn, I ask them if they can always explain their most profound appreciations of every truth and beauty. Where does the wonderous mystery of the sublime fit into their calculations of concretely certainty on everything.

    It seems to me that there are (often disputable) facts. There are opinions of varying authority. There are endless mysteries. There is God’s grace. And above all, there is faith. When do we have the humility to say that we just don’t know everything about everything?

    Perhaps, as you say, debate is most healthy and informative when it begins in humility and wonder rather that a surperior certainty.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. @tsalmon

      I think humility takes us further than most of us want to go. If “I” know someone is wrong, do they have they right to be wrong? Depends, does it not? But upon what does it depend?

      How “I” know “I” am right? What is the consequence of that someone being wrong? What is required to force “my” will upon that someone?

      I think humility requires us to recognize that most of the time we are better off letting that someone bear the consequences of their own choices. Most of the time we don’t have the capacity to intervene wisely. We just make a bad situation worse.

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  3. On “stopping obstreperous mouths”, Solomon had a lot to say. Proverbs 16:32 Whoever is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his spirit than he who takes a city. Proverbs 17:10 A rebuke goes deeper into a man of understanding than 100 blows into a fool. Proverbs 18:2. A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, only in expressing his own opinion. Proverbs 18:12-13 Before destruction a mans heart is haughty, but humility comes before honor. If one gives an answer before he hears the matter it is his folly and shame. Proverbs 19:3. When a man’s folly brings his way to ruin, his heart rages against the Lord. Proverbs 19:11. Good sense makes one slow to anger and it is his glory to overlook an offense. Proverbs 26:12. Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes. there is more hope for a fool than for him.

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  4. Tom,

    Great thought-provoking post to remember when debating any subject to keep in mind your statement.

    “When we don’t want to be convinced, we cannot be convinced.”

    Personally, I don’t understand why there is any conflict between religion and science. All science does is discover the greatness of God.

    As for proof in God, all we need to do is discover in life is what was God’s reason for allowing us to be born in this life,

    The answer to this question begins with understanding King Solomon’s Ecclesiastes observations and then moving on to understanding Jesus Christ’s message.

    If on the way to first discovering the Bible messages, we uncover some scientific discoveries, it adds to making life on earth more interesting if we consider what we will discover in the next life.

    Provided of course, we want to be convinced in any debate, religious or scientific, in my opinion.

    Regards and good will blogging.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. @Scatterwisdom

      Why is there a conflict between science and religion? Don’t think there is one with respect to Christianity. The conflict results when we try to reconcile what we believe the Bible says with what we think we know about Creation. Consider what I wrote to ColorStorm.

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  5. Debate IS important. Getting angry over disagreements is NOT. Far too many assume debate is an expression of anger. It is not. Debate sharpens our ideas, challenges our assertions. Debate is not only healthy, it is necessary.

    Gospel preaching and teaching are expressions of debate, and there is NO subject, let’s repeat for emphasis, there is NO subject that cannot be examined through scripture, AND debated.

    If scripture was only relevant as to salvation, God’s word would be an unnecessarily rather large book, as we can learn that in a minute or less in a scripture verse or two that speaks perfectly speaks to our condition before a holy God. But God in His magnificence foresaw our need, and gave us a heads up to things relevant to sobriety, wisdom, care for each other, work ethic, raising children, building homes, economics, care for animals, you name it, science included, so yeah, I’d say easily God’s word contains ALL that pertains to life and godliness, just as He said, and just as it has been proven.

    You did mention my ‘hurtness,’ but ha, I was careful to say I have thicker skin like a rhino and forebear because people have really not thought about such things as cosmology carefully enough, so I understand citing people who recognize a horizontal plane as opposed to spinning balls as delusional, and in some cases, not worthy of engaging. Too bad. I get that, and I sympathize with others plight, because as mentioned, this topic scares people. It does.

    Back to debate. Cosmology is just as important as any other doctrine in scripture, I dare any man to say otherwise. It is HOW we carry our points that proves whether Christianity has taken hold. Are we to only speak to they who agree with us, or are we to be kind to they who throw internet rocks at us also so to speak? The answer is obvious.

    There are many ministries, the body of Christ and the body itself says as much, all vital, each having a purpose others do not- just try walking without a little toe- yet we do not have to berate the little toes of others, as you say, we arte responsible before the Lord.

    But I love how atheists try to drive wedges between believers, at your place, mine, and so many others; they want us to be xerox copies then claim the bible is not true if we disagree about anything. Heck, I could care less if some don’t eat lobster, or if some want to be vegans- does not change one white that in the beginning God…………..

    And I hope you notice that whether people agree or not makes me think no less of them, We all stand at different mile markers, and what is not clear today may be down the road. But awesome job again, by you, in collating these things and carrying a conversation to a better place- important ‘debate.’ 😉

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Debate sharpens our ideas, challenges our assertions. Debate is not only healthy, it is necessary.
      Gospel preaching and teaching are expressions of debate, and there is NO subject, let’s repeat for emphasis, there is NO subject that cannot be examined through scripture, AND debated.
      If scripture was only relevant as to salvation, God’s word would be an unnecessarily rather large book, as we can learn that in a minute or less in a scripture verse or two that speaks perfectly speaks to our condition before a holy God. But God in His magnificence foresaw our need, and gave us a heads up to things relevant to sobriety, wisdom, care for each other, work ethic, raising children, building homes, economics, care for animals, you name it, science included, so yeah, I’d say easily God’s word contains ALL that pertains to life and godliness, just as He said, and just as it has been proven.

      I agree with all that (and it was well said, so kudos). But I have to ask…that curvature thing the earth does as one goes higher and higher (or further and further and disappears over the horizon)…what is your explanation for that?

      Until now, I had no idea that flat earth theory was still a “thing”. Course, I only learned that a significant portion of people don’t believe in the moon landings about a month ago.

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      1. Liz?
        Actually it is the opposite. The Horizon Always meets the level of the eye. Always. Everywhere. Every time. From a 3rd story apartment- to a 33,000 ft jet plane and beyond.

        Don’t know what u are referring to.

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        1. About 37,000 feet up is the point the curvature of the earth can be seen. There are photos that show this. Also, an airliner (like, say, the Concord) can take a path that goes around the whole earth, ending up in the same spot. Which wouldn’t be possible if the earth were flat (unless they went around in a circle, turning constantly left or right I suppose…this isn’t the case). There are 30 GPS satellites orbiting our earth right now, and they wouldn’t be circling around a flat surface either.

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          1. Why debate Liz per the title? Lol

            I have seen thousands of amateur balloon vids with GoPro cameras attached- and at 128, 000 ft- there is nothing but a perfect horizontal frame for as far as the eye can see- so rest assured your fish eye curve at a lesser altitude is obvious.

            That said- never met a single pilot who honestly said they saw firsthand a curve- at any height.

            Did I mention the perfect shoreline at Myrtle Beach USA, a 65 mile perfect razor line- otherwise impossible on a curved surface.

            A carpenters level would be useless if it curved. Just sayin.

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          2. “That said- never met a single pilot who honestly said they saw firsthand a curve- at any height.”

            LOL, you have now. At 41,000 feet, I’ve also witnessed with wonder the curved and starry shadow of the Earth split and fold the darkening night into the receding day.

            I love this discussion though. It says a good deal about our belief in “alternative facts”, our dismissiveness of authority and our unwillingness to cope with often complex mysteries.

            Over many flights, I’ve literally flown the circumference of the Earth. If it were not actually in reality a sphere, then it served me well to navigate the planet “as if” it were one. That “faith”, somewhat like my faith in God, has served me well, even if it proves wrong in the end. Perhaps a faith in flatness serves CS in a way that alludes me though.

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          3. Here is an interesting insight to this topic from philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein:

            Tell me,” Wittgenstein asked a friend, “why do people always say, it was natural for man to assume that the sun went round the earth rather than that the earth was rotating?” His friend replied, “Well, obviously because it just looks as though the Sun is going round the Earth.” Wittgenstein replied, “Well, what would it have looked like if it had looked as though the Earth was rotating?

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          4. @tsalmon

            If we had to run to stay in the same place, I suspect everyone would wonder about the cause. Eventually we would want to live near one of the poles so could avoid running so much.

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    2. @ColorStorm

      Glad you thought well of this post. I hope Running the Race also finds some merit in what I wrote.

      Don’t disagree with your comment. I would just add that making sense of — interpreting and understanding scripture — can be difficult. If we don’t believe the Bible, we will be tempted to twist it. Even if we believe the Bible, and we have accepted Jesus as our Savior, we will have problems.

      The Bible is a complex work. It requires good translations, the help of dedicated teachers, time, effort, intelligence, wisdom, and humility to make proper sense of it. And it is a task that has no end.

      God’s Creation is far more complex; it requires resources beyond our imaginations to understand God what has made. We still have much — only God knows how much — to learn. Often we don’t know how to square what we find in the Bible with what we have discovered about Creation.

      Humility requires us to admit our deficiencies, but who is humble? How do we measure humility? It is in humility we must turn to our Master in prayer and beg for His guidance. For no other can illuminate the scriptures for the proud.

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      1. I’m glad you place the bookends of humility between things that can be controversial to some. I am of the opinion we are to ‘prove all things,’ and some things are actually worth debating, but why?

        Many reasons as you know. But if its worth thinking about, its worth talking about. If its worth talking about, its worth writing about. In some cases, its worth carrying further, by linking, which you do, and did! So tkx again, as we forbear.

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    3. God went to some length to fool people into thinking, that the Earth is a ball. In the second century B.C. Eratosthenes of Cyrene used the observations of shadows and a known distance to estimate the Earth circumference at about 44.000 km, about 10% off from today’s accepted value.

      You can not trust your eyes either: If you ever get to see a Foucault pendulum, God makes its plane of oscillation change over time, just as if Earth were a spinning ball.

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      1. God fools no one marm-
        We create our own foolishness, some intentionally, some by ignorance, some by rebellion.
        And the oscillation and interpretation of Focault has long been weighed in the balance and found to be wanting. Sorry.

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  6. Still defending johns silly belief that the earth is flat/stationary/non-moving. Sorry Tom, when even Christians keep telling cs that he’s wrong, he’s the one with the pride issue. You’re just miffed that the disagreement is in public. And one last thing… You and I both know that John isn’t interested in debate or being corrected. “Let God be true and every man a liar”. John thinks his position is from God and won’t be dissuaded otherwise no matter how much evidence to the contrary. Instead of encouraging others to not correct him in public and not mock his obviously silly ideas, you could just tell him plainly and openly that you don’t agree with him, and ask him to keep those flat earth ideas to himself in the interests of not bringing “open shame” to other Christians and Christianity on the internet. That would be a more constructive and honest way to deal with cs’s silliness.

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    1. @grabaspine

      What makes you think I have any right to tell ColorStorm what to think and say? He belongs to God, not me.

      Does what ColorStorm believe harm him or anyone else? Not as far as I can tell, and I can’t speak for anyone else.

      We live in society that promotes the free exchange ideas. The behavior you have suggested just stifles open discussion. When people anticipate ridicule, they claim up. If we are confident in our beliefs, can’t we afford to be generous?

      Why do we promote a free exchange of ideas? The founders had the Christian belief that none of us has on monopoly on the truth. Christians see Truth as a person, our Lord, God, Jesus Christ. Jesus’ Bible does not encourage us to pointlessly belittle each other. Please check out Romans 14 => https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14&version=KJV

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      1. All those words to avoid rebuking John for his embarrassing idiotic ideas. Amazing that you can’t just say he’s wrong because he a brother

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        1. @grabaspine

          ColorStorm and I know we don’t agree. I have no trouble tell my brothers and sisters we have a difference of opinion.I just don’t know why I need to rebuke him. What is the sin?

          Liked by 1 person

      2. So you are not bothered by CS claiming that the Bible tells us as The Truth that the Earth is flat? That CS claims Flat-Eartherism to be part and parcle of Christian faith, to be dogma? No worries, that this could turn other people away from salvation?

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        1. @marmoewp

          You are familiar with the history of religious warfare? Those wars were not actually about religion. There were about arrogant men forcing their truths upon each other.

          Does the Bible make the claim that Christians are perfect? Am I perfect? Then what basis do I have for twisting anyone’s arm? Who am I to force another to believe what I believe?

          What the Bible says and what we understand it to be saying are two different things. What man can completely understand God? All I can do is TRY to learn what is true.

          The Bible teaches certain basic truths that each of us must accept for the sake of our salvation. The Apostle’s Creed provides a good list. I actively defend those truths. I don’t associate with so-called Christians who who call what is good evil and what is evil good, but I don’t judge them. God is our judge, not you or me.

          Anyway, ColorStorm’s confusion in this matter just strikes me as a distracting personal problem. Imagine a beautiful woman with a pimple on the tip of her nose. We all have pimples. Some of us just have pimples where they are more prominently displayed.

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        2. Between you and mike. it’s darn near a comedy show. You refer to ‘flat earth’ while I do not use the term.

          So already the debate is lost- by you- as you obviously are arguing with yourself- pretending to be blind- then accusing me of being blind.

          Any honest judge Must and Will agree with my observations.

          That said, YOU prove the earth rattles through space at 66,000 mph- while spinning like a carnival ride, taking unsuspecting birds, butterflies, whales, and people with it, in addition to hovering bumblebees and helicopters, as well as SSTS breaking the sound barriers in all directions.

          But it is I who is merely asking for evidence? I am afraid the debate brings out apparent weaknesses, and as I noted elsewhere, I call upon Mt Everest as my only silent witness needed. 😉

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          1. I really love to talk about such things, Colorstorm. I find it very strange that people would call such things “sin,” like the ideas someone else presents make me uncomfortable so obviously they are “sinning?” That’s just silly. Also, a problematic symptom of our modern culture.

            Quantum Physics can be a fun thing to discuss and there is huge resistance within the science world itself. QM takes note of things like how matter isn’t real, it is simply energy. Atoms have no actual hard substance, they are energy. We ourselves are made up of atoms of energy. So in fact, the material world is not real, it is an illusion we perceive that gives form and substance to the energy we are seeing. Chuckling here, but this is truth, this is science, but just try explaining to people that the material world isn’t actually “material” at all, and they’ll often just get all cranky about it.

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          2. It is so nice having such a thought person as yourself as an ally. While others may chastise you for such an alignment, even if you faulted my views regarding this or that, they would be hard-pressed to disagree with my assessment of you.

            WordPress is truly elevated with your presence, and CTom is nodding in agreement I’m sure.

            We would be well served to remember that there is this thing called ‘science falsely so-called,,’ to be wary of the many devices used improperly to supplant God’s created order, as if Paul sat down and wrote this heads up by inspiration this morning; but heck, no surprise to a few of us, after all, it is God’s word msB, and tk you for your consistent testimony and right hand. 😉

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          3. @ColorStorm

            Decades ago when I was earning a degree in Chemistry, someone set up a presentation by a engineer on the Theory of Evolution. The fellow only had a shallow understanding of entropy, but he set out to prove to a bunch of scientists how entropy makes the Theory of Evolution impossible. Since I had just studied thermodynamics in a physical chemistry course, I knew that poor engineer didn’t know what he was talking about. The Theory of Evolution may be nonsense, but simple fact that entropy always increases in a closed system does not render the theory untrue. We just don’t have the means to prove or disprove the Theory of Evolution.

            Anyway, I expect marmoewp’s knowledge with respect to this subject is not inconsequential. Moreover, he seems annoyed. I don’t think there is much to be gained by jerking his chain or vice versa.

            If marmoewp wants to make his case, I suggest you consider what he has to offer. Even if he does not convince you, you may learn something. I would also observe that people have been working on this problem, the shape of the earth and its place in the solar system for thousands of years.

            Newton’s Laws were a real breakthrough, but it takes serious study to understand what people have learned. Reconciling that knowledge with the Bible also takes some serious study and wisdom.

            When that engineer tried to lecture scientists on how entropy disproves the Theory of Evolution, he just proved he had not studied the subject enough.

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          4. Please defend the hundred mile horizontal Suez Canal with no locks…….. which by your very own curvature chart, NEEDS to be hidden behind 1.27 miles of drop.

            This argument of yours only makes sense, if you assume that the direction gravity at one end of the Suez canal is parallel to the direction of gravity at the other end. That concept is commonly refered to as Flat Earth, irrespective of what you chose to call or not call it.

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          5. @marm-

            The example of a hundred mile waterway is no different from the state of Florida or Kansas.

            For the love of God, and the sake of honesty not even to mention common sense- if there exists your curve/ where in Gods bane is it?

            Assumptions will not do. Unprovable theories are useless. Just ask yourself if what you allege agrees with your senses- or if your theories punish them.

            If there exists your 66,000 mph orbit/ prove it. I don’t have to prove anything- My senses tell me Everest has not moved, maybe an avalanche here and there- and that the pyramids of Giza were found guilty of dancing around the universe, but perhaps you have seen such things- maybe heard tales. Lol

            But I can assure you, people have not really considered such things for a minute of their lives; that’s why insults are the usual automatic response.

            And I think it’s safe to say that most of CTs readers do not think I am a stupid man.

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          6. @ColorStorm

            Tom is right to an extent. I am a bit annoyed. I am annoyed by being called dishonest for not agreeing with you. I am annoyed by your passive-aggressiveness, by you insinuating that I consider you stupid, that anyone that disagrees with you has not given any thought to the subject at hand.

            Let me be brutally honest and blunt. No, I do not consider you to be stupid. I consider you to be willfully ignorant and proud of it. Being stupid can not be helped, is none of the fault of the person being stupid, and I have met precious, kind and wonderful stupid people. I can not say the same about willfully ignorant people.

            On the subject of science: Your senses tell you that X-rays do not exist, that radio-activity does not exist, that radio waves do not exist. Yet you are happy to have your broken bone set only after having the fracture examined by X-rays, most likely use electricity from a nuclear power plant and use a mobile phone. The GPS system that guides the navigation system that you may have used in a car yourself is based on satellites orbiting a basically spherical Earth. The very same system is being used to observe Mt Everest move, ever so slowly.

            But lo and behold, all those people working on that system of science and engineering are just being dishonest and lying to you, because you ColorStorm, the sole and only arbiter of the acurate reading of the Bible, say so.

            I am annoyed. I am annoyed that you waste the gift of reason that God has given to you and call others dishonest for using that exact gift to more appreciate the beauty of God’s creation.

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          7. @marm

            The atheist following along must be salivating at your response.
            Tkx for your attention further, keep in mind the nature of replies in answering many people at once gets lost in context, and the fact that the original post had to do with ‘why do we mock that which we do not understand,’ which led to this ‘debate thread,’ so please do not be shortsighted in thinking I am clueless as to science, via technology.

            The properties of water hardly need interpreted through an x-ray machine. You make the mistake of comparing how things WORK with the way things ARE, then accuse me of pride or ignorance for not agreeing with you. Not too smart.

            When I say people are dishonest, it has to do with peoples exaggerated interpretation of nature. Men told time by the movement of the sun with a visible dial, long before Mr. Timex or Longine was in diapers. They told time by the movement of the sun, and they did not need PhD’s in astronomy or corporate logos to support their science of telling time.

            You somehow use scientific gyrations to place in bed the ‘movement of the earth,’ with x-rays because neither can be seen? You cant see the massive contradiction? But it is I who is ignorant?

            As to me being the only one who can interpret God’s word correctly, are you serious? Are you aware that millions of people, including some of the finest Christians (of times past)
            are annoyed at the idea of an unproven 66,000mph orbit which no man has seen, can see, or ever will see?

            Are you also aware that Tesla said of Einstein theories are but like ‘beggars dressed in purple, who ignorant people take as kings?’ and that he said Einstein was not a scientist, but a metaphysicist only, whose numbers and theories only dazzle, but have no basis in reality?

            So then by your own admission, Tesla was equally ignorant. I think not.

            Nature is the finest of teachers, and this is where we fall short, assuming that technology has answers which overrule nature; it is THIS context when I speak of things, tangible, reasonable, observable. Water always finds its own level. and
            Kansas and Florida are dead horizontal. Period. Everest has not moved, only in the minds of theorists, and the foundations of buildings are also secure,
            lest they be rattled loose by wobbling through space.

            If you promote a curvature, it is you who needs proof, and rest assured, there is no answer to be found in the finest x-ray machine. God does not need technology to maintain His creation.

            And oh by the way, since the earth was created without form and void along with the heavens, you may want to consider just what exactly was the earth orbiting and spinning around…………..BEFORE the sun and moon were created for the earth.

            So no, I claim no special dispensation in understanding scripture. I do agree however with millions of others who believe the text, as it is written, and as far as I can tell, nature confirms, even today.

            But its ok if you do not agree, not all are at the same mile markers in life, but please do not say scripture is silent regarding God’s cosmology.

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          8. ”If you promote a curvature, it is you who needs proof,”
            There’s been a lot of proof provided.
            Pilots have seen it (tsalmon above, and my husband has also seen it). We have satellites revolving around the planet now. Astronauts, the space program (one astronaut flies for SWA, so that’s one pilot/astronaut you could ask), lots and lots of footage of satellite imagery. I’m hard pressed to think of anything with more hard evidence in existence.

            And oh by the way, since the earth was created without form and void along with the heavens, you may want to consider just what exactly was the earth orbiting and spinning around…………..BEFORE the sun and moon were created for the earth.

            I’m not God so I can’t say…but maybe, just maybe, He knew what he intended to do? Or you could use the same argument that chlorophyll can’t exist in plants.

            Liked by 1 person

          9. And equally Liz, perhaps we should consider the possibility that God had already made things as Ge planned-

            That when He said: ‘He hath made the earth, firm, immovable,’ it was as He said.

            That when He said’ He hath established the earth, immovable, ‘ it was already fixed in eternity.

            As to fish eye, maybe u have seen the images of water skiers on the ball at the ocean, so no I am not impressed.

            Liked by 1 person

          10. As to fish eye, maybe u have seen the images of water skiers on the ball at the ocean, so no I am not impressed.

            I don’t understand this sentence.

            Like

          11. I looked up “fish eye view” and understand what you are referring to now (the link didn’t work for me).
            At any rate, it would seem the images I’d point to you dismiss as fisheye, and the ones you point to (“thousands of balloon photos”) are ipso facto legitimate…as long as they show you what you are willing to believe.
            And the pilots who have never seen the curve are “honest” and the ones who have are either dishonest or “fisheye” somehow.
            Got it.

            Liked by 1 person

          12. @Liz

            The way the scientific method deals with rejections of “proofs” like “fisheye” is with predictive models. What we see is just a type of observational data. It is just another data point our model needs to explain.

            What is an example of a model? When mathematicians and engineers calculate rocket launch and spacecraft trajectories, the are using highly accurate models that describe the motions of all the objects that make up our solar system. The problem is that is takes a fair amount of study to appreciate what these models do, or you have to believe the people who say we have landed spacecraft on Mars. Given the dishonesty of some of our politicians, I can appreciate why some people might be skeptical.

            That said, if you know someone who uses a TV attached to a satellite receiver, it is kind of obvious the signal is coming from outer space. So there is a point where healthy skepticism becomes just plain stubbornness. Stubbornness with respect to something like this is kind of easy since the consequences don’t amount to anything except for people in specialized professions.

            Like

      3. So, where do you draw the line, Tom? How crazy do the ideas of Colorstorm have to get before you will call him out? People are free to believe whatever they want but when someone takes a belief almost no one takes seriously and boisterously proclaims it is an absolute biblical truth, I think that person has a problem that should concern all Christians he interacts with.

        It is my understanding from reading this post as well as the two you linked to that Colorstorm has absolutely zero problem telling anyone who disagrees with him on the shape of the Earth exactly what they should believe in in accordance with Scripture.

        What weird hold does this flamboyant nutcase have on people that causes them to fear him? “OH goody CS, this is a great topic so worthy of discussion” or however the butt kissing went.

        Um, no it isn’t, not at all. Flat Earth Theory is insane and it’s pushed by people who have serious issues with how their brains work.

        Finally, would you say that CS ever acts in humility? Seems more like the “my way (which he conveniently calls God’s way) or the highway type” to me.

        Like

        1. @Mikey D

          I am just a blogger, not a thought policeman. Jesus is the Truth, not me. Who am I to run around browbeating everyone until they agree with me about everything?

          The cause of Truth is best served when each of us loves our neighbor. When each of us can share our beliefs without fear of ridicule, it is easier for us to discern and accept the truth. Since ColorStorm is not harming anyone, I will not join you in ridicule. You can get such juvenile jollies without me.

          Like

          1. ‘ColorStorm is not harming anyone.’ Ha! An understatement. How can one person be usually so fair minded and be so off his rocker at the same time regarding nature and the nature of science, fighting upstream like salmon who are unaware that a bear awaits him at the end of his long journey?

            I’m laughing though, as I’m not concerned about being someone else’s lunch. lol

            But you are correct ‘Why debate?’ In a world where we are afraid of opposing views, only the immature are slighted by others views. So we swap ideas, sharpen views, hone our beliefs, see whether they hold up to scrutiny and scripture, nature, our senses, and ultimately Truth itself.

            What is truly bizarre though, and I must say, is how strange these things sound, when they were never strange at all back in the day….I remember when Paul was thought to be nutso for preaching the resurrection of the dead, but something that was true all along- but people forgot that God raises the dead- and reminds us by the perennial flower.

            Also, tkx for your mature responses to others who say I and others like me, need to be put in straight jackets. lol

            Foe what it’s worth, I am really happy disagreeing with the atheist/evolution view of life and creation, and I think I have much support in completely and vehemently opposing their religion of science. As to believers who disagree, I am happy in the things in which we agree. Time is a wondrous healer and what we oppose today we may love tomorrow. 😉

            Like

          2. @ColorStorm

            We have more reasons to enjoy each other’s company than not. We share in Jesus.

            We have to pick our battles as Jesus would have us. To some degree almost everyone is a bit insane. If nothing else we each tend disregard the fact that our own point-of-view is limited, that we must consider what others think and know to improve our understanding. Christians know to do this because Jesus told us to love God and our neighbor.

            So what if someone thinks they are Santa Claus? So long as they only give away what belongs to them, what difference does it make? It is the supposedly sane Santa Claus politicians who insist upon giving away what belongs to others we need to lock up. Yet in our “sanity” we praise politicians for their generosity with other people’s money.

            Liked by 1 person

        1. I will defend to.my death his right to hold his belief but I will never defend the belief itself.

          This comment must have ended up in the wrong spot, I was agreeing with something a commenter named grabaspine wrote.

          Like

          1. @Running the Race

            Your comment ended up in the right place.

            grabaspine said:

            Still defending johns silly belief that the earth is flat/stationary/non-moving.

            You responded: “Yes, absolutely.” Since ColorStorm is the only commenter here defending his belief, your words suggested you had decided to help him defend his belief instead of just defending his right to hoId his belief. I thought that a bit surprising. Thank you for the correction.

            Like

          2. The comment I agrres with was this.

            “Still defending johns silly belief that the earth is flat/stationary/non-moving. Sorry Tom, when even Christians keep telling cs that he’s wrong, he’s the one with the pride issue. You’re just miffed that the disagreement is in public. And one last thing… You and I both know that John isn’t interested in debate or being corrected. “Let God be true and every man a liar”. John thinks his position is from God and won’t be dissuaded otherwise no matter how much evidence to the contrary. Instead of encouraging others to not correct him in public and not mock his obviously silly ideas, you could just tell him plainly and openly that you don’t agree with him, and ask him to keep those flat earth ideas to himself in the interests of not bringing “open shame” to other Christians and Christianity on the internet. That would be a more constructive and honest way to deal with cs’s silliness.”

            Like

          3. @Running the Race

            There is a difference between correcting someone and mocking (or ridiculing) someone. We are suppose to “give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear”, but most of us tend to be a bit arrogant. We act as if the Truth is about “me”, not Jesus.

            Can you imagine how ridiculous God finds us when we ridicule each other for the same sins we each commit? When we consider how to hold our Christian brothers sisters accountable, what should we do, ask Atheists for their advice? Of course not! We use the Bible.

            Roman 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 speak to how we should correct Christians who insist upon upholding dubious beliefs.

            1 Corinthians 8:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)

            8 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

            I don’t read minds. I don’t know why ColorStorm has trouble believing the earth is a sphere circling the sun. I just know his confusion is relatively harmless, that he has to work that one out with God, not me.

            Like

          4. First off, Tom, I’ve mocked and ridiculed no one so if that is the thrust of your beef with me it’s unfounded.

            Like

          5. @Running the Race

            You have mocked and ridiculed no one?

            I am not going there. As I said when I wrote this post, I would prefer to leave that tempest in a teapot. I was just curious about your first comment, and I wanted to make my own position clear.

            Like

          6. So comment explaining the difference between correcting and mocking/ridiculing wasn’t directed at me? Seems as though it was, Tom.

            Like

          7. No, the Earth has seemed spherical since the 6th century BC. Almost all doubt was removed around the centuries later.

            Like

          8. @Running the Race

            Until Columbus the idea of a spherical earth had little practical application. That has changed, but most people could still c
            Get by believing in a flat earth.

            Most people operate off of what seems to be true. That’s why who controls the education of a child is so important. If we grow up being told something over and over again with everyone behaving as if what we are being told is assumed to be true, we grow up assuming the same something is true because it seems to be true. Some beliefs matter too much to be left to chance.

            Like

          9. Not sure what you mean by practical application in this context Tom as the shape of the Earth doesn’t have much practical application for most people now.

            As far as education goes, you are right, who controls the education is very important. What I understand about flat earthers though is that they come to their beliefs about the Earth outside of the schools. I can’t be certain but I doubt very seriously that there is a single public school in America that teaches that the Earth is not spherical.

            You also make a good point about people believing what seems to be true to them. People, it seems, too often get emotions confused with facts.

            Liked by 1 person

          10. @Running the Race

            Objectivity is a goal. Bias is a fact.

            What is a practical application of a spherical earth? Columbus thought he could get to India by sailing west. He underestimated the size of the earth. Fortunately for him he discovered New World.

            Pilots and seamen travel vast distances. Their navigation methods assume a spherical earth. Those launching spacecraft assume a spherical earth. Those conducting interplanetary missions assume the earth circles the sun.

            Because practical applications involve relatively few people with more than average math skills, I don’t get too upset about people who reject the notion of a spherical earth that circles the sun. It took intensive study and thinking to gain the insight that the earth is a sphere that circles the sun. Intuition suggests otherwise. Without the education I have, I would assume the earth is stationary.

            Like

          11. I meant to say, “So the comment explaining the difference…”

            Hope that didn’t cause any confusion.

            Like

          12. Tkx for chiming in further james-

            As this thread is about ‘Debate,’ what use is debate ONLY in areas in which we are ‘Safe,’ so to speak? Should you not at least appreciate CToms willingness to host a topic that you say is not worthy of time?

            I recall Mr Degrass, Nye, and Mr Obama himself say they have ‘no time’ for such nonsense, yet the very science they promote DEMANDS they prove, explain, observe, and with repeatable evidence, defend any view that claims to be true.

            It is THIS precise context that is the essence of debate. So then by their very words, and your agreement with them, the debate is lost, by default. The debate is over, not because my points are weak, but because the heroes of science, and you included if you agree with their approach, refuse to enter the ring of public opinion and risk not being able to defend this or that. To say the topic is childish or unworthy of serious thought has History saying otherwise.

            Therefore, and ‘zany ideas’ you may think I hold, are irrelevant.

            Any debate moderator will agree with me on this point, even if I am dead wrong. At least I show up. At least I am willing to engage. And Tom here is more the man for his understanding that believers for centuries have disagreed regarding the scriptures, reading the same texts, in areas of doctrine that are far more important, such as how a sinner is justified before a holy God, or should Christians worship on Saturday or Sunday, or did the Lord Christ have brothers? or was Mary a perpetual virgin? on and on and on, yet, while disagreeing, remain the best of friends.

            My point in this ‘debate,’ thread is plainly saying that believers for far too long have accepted the ‘religious scientism’ of godlessness, and not really considered the depth of scripture’s resources as to the cosmology of where we live, and our place in God’s universe.

            (and the fact that you align yourself with atheists all of a sudden is startling. Rest assured, their science is wrong also, especially the man/ ape thing, so it may be worth your time to reevaluate things that they have no time for)

            Like

          13. There is no even if to it CS, you are absolutely dead wrong. That the Earth is NOT flat has been settled for thousands of years, CS that is why there is no point in debating it.

            And, since extending the hand of Christian fellowship and love seem to be a big deal for you and Tom, why is it OK to insult me by telling me I align with atheists?

            Like

          14. Its not an insult. Why do you confuse facts with feelings?

            The atheistsRus club have collectively in many times and many places, have had no problem whatsoever saying how retarded, delusional, idiotic, unlearned, stone age intellect, not worthy of discussion, someone who needs straightened out, (even spine says as much) etc, for hearing my defense of a stationary earth, just as it appears- you have said as much also- so there is an alignment, that’s all.

            Like

          15. Never mind, CS, I can’t waste any more time on this.

            In parting, though, you and Tom need to climb off your Bible quoting high horses and think about the hand of fellowship you have extended to the fellow Christian YOU went of of your way to invite to this debate.

            Like

          16. @Running the Race

            Please observe what the post was about. I did not take either your side or ColorStorm’s. I have specifically told ColorStorm I think he is wrong, that the earth is sphere. Your behavior (whether good or bad) became part of the discussion when you chose to make it so.

            Like

          17. My behavior became part of the discussion when Colorstorm chose to write a post about me mocking what he wrongfully claims I do not understand. I mocked no one.

            So you didn’t question my behavior in that last comment, Tom?

            Like

          18. If you insist on debate, CS, point to one post where you have made a coherent case that backs up your belief that the Earth is not spherical.

            That’s the essence of debate, is it not, CS? If so, provide a link that makes your case.

            And don’t just say, “the heavens declare…” that won’t work. Sell it to me, convince me.

            Or are you just a hand waving denialist who isn’t right in the head.

            Liked by 1 person

          19. Any debate moderator will agree with me on this point, even if I am dead wrong. At least I show up. At least I am willing to engage.

            But you have provided evidence (“balloon photos” and “honest pilot” anecdotes) that you have then arbitrarily rejected when the same evidence did not support your paradigm. That isn’t debate. It tells the person having the discussion with you that they are wasting their time. No one likes to have their time wasted. Your time is as important to you as mine is to me.
            The more the person who discusses (the topic…whatever it might be, hypothetically) perceives they are wasting time, the more annoyed they become.
            When people are discussing something kind of trivial (yes, I know this topic isn’t trivial to you but I think it is to most other folks) and then they perceive they are wasting their time on trivialities, they often start to get personal and insulting. It isn’t right, but it is human nature.
            Best thing to do is stop, rather than continue the frustration, and leave you to your, “No one will engage me!!” assertions.

            Liked by 1 person

  7. Ha! Good post, Tom. I was just thinking of writing something similar about debates, but you’ve gone and done it wonderfully! I suppose I shall have to write that post anyway or I’ll just leave a ton of comments on your blog. 🙂

    Liked by 3 people

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