GOD-GIVEN OR GOVERNMENT-GIVEN RIGHTS? — PART 5

Monument dedicated to the victims of the repressions in Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia. (from here)

Since this post discusses the possibility of violent, internecine warfare, a Second American Civil War, I suppose this post will most likely get the most hits in this series, but the last post in this series is probably the more important. That is because the last post addresses the root of the problem, suggesting that the solution the framers of the Constitution proposed is still the most viable, if not an entirely satisfactory solution. What this post discusses is the difficulty of compromise and the outcome if we are unable to arrive at a solution.

This is the fifth part in a series designed to inspire debate on the nature of our Rights.

  • Part 1: Here we considered the definition of rights promoted by the Declaration of Independence.
  • Part 2: This part examined whether the Bible affirms whether or not our rights are God-given.
  • Part 3:  This part looked more carefully at the argument for government-given rights.
  • Part 4:  This last section considered the philosophical decision we have to make when we decide how to institute a government. It explains the true nature of the decision Liberal Democrats and Progressives demand we support.

Here we will consider the following question.

Why Is Compromise Not An Option?

DougDoug, an anti-Trumpist, has an interesting post, As You Mull Over The Next Possible Apocalypse, Civil War, Anyone? Doug, while his feelings for Trump are hardly rational, does seem to be largely level-headed. So he stills supports winning his cause through the electoral process. Nevertheless, he begins his post by blaming……

There are a number of real bozo’s on the right wing that would actually entertain some level of civil unrest, or even a civil war, to kinda “cleanse” the Washington elites, remove public enemy #1.. the press, and eliminate from the gene pool all those God-forsaken Obama and Clinton lovers from the face of the planet. (continued here)

What most people don’t seem to understand is that there is not a dime’s worth of difference between what we call the extreme right and the extreme left. Nazis use race as excuse to hate, and Communists/Socialists use economic class differences. Both support dictatorial socialist regimes. Sadly, it appears that Liberal Democrats just invented identity politics so they would have more excuses to arouse hatred in people. It is such demagoguery that leads to war.

Since Dougseems willing to engage in dialogue, I comment from time-to-time on his blog.  Here is part of a comment I left at  Doug‘s post.

Have you truly considered what civil war means? It is not us versus them. It is brother against brother. Civil war happens because compromise is no longer possible. Brothers, people who should be close enough to care deeply about each other, find themselves trying to kill each other.

After decades of traversing from one shaky compromise to the next, the North and the South found compromise impossible. The South saw Lincoln as an abolitionist, unacceptable. Similarly, too many see Trump’s presidency as intolerable.

If you cannot get the folks on your side accept the outcome of a fair election, why point at the other side? Why blame the Tea Party or Conservatives? You want peace? Then hold your own accountable. They won’t listen to the Tea Party or Conservatives. The mass media has demonized us too well, but they may listen to you. (from here)

In his post, Doug mostly concerns himself with what a civil war would look like in today’s America, but it is obvious that he, like the rest of us, does not know what to expect.

What would a civil war look like? That depends mostly upon how much hatred we allow demagogues to instill into us. Look at the Nazis. Consider the Holocaust. Weep over the Communist’s purges which still occur from time-to-time. Consider the untold millions various tyrants have murdered, committing genocide against their own people. Remember how they destroyed their enemies in mass killings, in gulags, and in concentrations camps. That was civil war.

When we try to use the government to run the lives of others, we can call it an act of love, condemning our enemies as selfish monsters. We can use the power of government to demand all kinds of programs to help other people, but giving that kind of power to our leaders corrupts them, and it corrupts the people who receive the benefits of such programs. Why? True charity is personal and voluntary. True charity comes from the heart, not a government program. True charity requires someone to give and someone to receive (gratefully, if they can swallow their pride and be thankful instead of envious).

So why is it that when Liberal Democrats and Progressives insist upon legislating socialist programs there is no basis for compromise? Consider again the ideas presented in Part 4.

  • The founders of this nation deliberately limited government power by legislating against only against sins of commission. They prohibited the sins that arise when we decide to harm our neighbor. These sins arise from hatred, envy, greed, pride,…..
  • The founders did not give the Federal Government broad powers to force the People to do the “right thing”. That is, the founders did not put the Federal Government in the business of correcting sins of omission, sins that arise when we fail to love our neighbors as we should. Undoubtedly, some considered the possibility, but they understood the problem. Which of us is fit to properly exercise such power? Which citizens, you and me, would not be tempted to use the power of the ballot to vote to receive that which belongs to someone else?

Whether we want to admit it or not, government is not a wonderful tool for solving societal problems. It is primarily an instrument of force, designed to stop some people from doing harm to other people. When used properly, government allows each of us the opportunity to do whatever it is that we each think is the “right thing”. However, even when they are in majority when some busybodies try to use government to use government to force their fellow citizens to do the “right thing”, their supposedly good intentions are leading them on the path to Hell. In addition to depriving their fellow citizens of the right to decide for themselves what is the “right thing”, these busybodies turn the government into an instrument of tyranny.

Want some specifics from recent history? All we have to do is turn to the reign of President Barack Obama to see what happens when our nations leaders think the have the right to run our lives for us. Consider.

Don’t think these examples are enough? Don’t think the logic for limited government makes sense? Don’t think God gives us our rights? Okay. Then put up or shut up. What rights do we have? Why? When they don’t find it convenient to do so, why should anyone respect your rights?

When the new world was settled by peoples from Europe, only thirteen colonies on east coast of North America thrived to become a great nation. What made the United States different? What did its founders do differently? If we want to know, we have to set aside what the busybodies want us to believe. Instead of letting others educate us, telling what to think and how to live, trying to legislate our existence; we must educate ourselves. We must strive to stand upon the shoulders of those who have gone before us and try to see just a little farther than they did.

Bernard of Chartres used to say that we [the Moderns] are like dwarves perched on the shoulders of giants [the Ancients], and thus we are able to see more and farther than the latter. And this is not at all because of the acuteness of our sight or the stature of our body, but because we are carried aloft and elevated by the magnitude of the giants. — Isaac Newton (from here)

Our ultimate hero — our best example — is Jesus, but to understand how to imitate Jesus we must copy the example of those we see imitating the example Jesus, even if we can only learn about them by reading the history of their lives and thoughts.

58 thoughts on “GOD-GIVEN OR GOVERNMENT-GIVEN RIGHTS? — PART 5

  1. Thinking more on possibility of a civil war in USA, I doubt the likelihood because of the assimalation that has taken place in most States.overthe years.

    I would be more concerned about lawlessness and anarchy if good and water become scarce.

    My reason is sharing by individuals has become replaced by people asumig government services will provide.

    In Chicago, the police cannot find anywitnesses to come forward because they know they will suffer harm from gangs if they identify them.

    Justi imaine the violence
    thatwill occur when the Government can no longer protect or feed for a prolect nfor a prolonged period.a Nation of families who run out of food and water.

    Doug’s post iaserit on this point,

    Regards and good will blogging

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Good stuff, Tom. You know the saying, “a chicken in every pot” or “we have to give them bread and circuses?” The point being, good leadership always requires keeping a lid on your civilians, least they arm themselves and storm the castle. Like the last thing you want to do is say something like, “let them eat cake.” The peasants never revolt until they lose all hope and begin to feel as if they have nothing left to lose.

    So, to worry about a conservative revolt or an alt right invasion, a civil war, at this point just doesn’t fit the model at all. The time to be concerned about such things was actually a few years back. I really was starting to sense hopelessness and fear. Rampant unemployment and the opioid epidemic alone were leaving a lot of people feeling as if they had to do something, and right quick. Perching on the edge of anarchy, I’m telling you.

    What surprises me to this day is how hard it is to share that truth with liberals, with academics even, with the very same people who taught me these things in the first place! Like for some strange reason they seem to have no idea how much suffering went on under the last administration and how desperate people were becoming.

    Liked by 3 people

  3. Oh.. and one more thing.. (I feel like Columbo…) 🙂
    Thanks for the consideration of a mention on your blog here… and recognizing I support determining Trump’s future through the electoral process. Although, to be perfectly accurate, I support determining Trump’s future through ANY accepted Constitutional process. I ain’t picky. 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

    1. @Doug

      Thank you for your reply and for your considerable effort to be specific.

      Here I am replying to portions of these comments.

      https://citizentom.com/2018/08/08/god-given-or-government-given-rights-part-5/#comment-82764

      https://citizentom.com/2018/08/08/god-given-or-government-given-rights-part-5/#comment-82764

      Did Liberal Democrats invent Identity politics as an excuse to hate? Did the Nazis invent Nazism as an excuse to hate? Did the Communist invent Communism as an excuse to hate? All we can say is that masses of Germans, Italians, Russians, Chinese, Americans, and people all around our globe have at various times hated other people with all their heart and soul. Oddly, they thought they were doing the “right thing”.

      You don’t think of “political retribution, genocidal racism, and government control” as true civil war? Have you ever looked at the numbers? How many people have to die before it is a war? What happened in these instances is that one side put the other in such a weak position they chose surrender as the wiser option. The Jews, when they realized — admitted the truth to themselves — finally fought back (=>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising) fought back. Better late than never, I suppose.
      :weep:

      It seems that when I say there is no basis for compromise with Liberal Democrats and their Socialism I confuse you. Were their Socialist programs passed as the result of compromise? Not really. The Constitution clearly prohibits programs like Social Security, food stamps, and Medicare. When we ignore what the Constitution says, what kind of compromise is that?

      You say the Supreme Court says those socialist programs are okay? That’s a cop-out. There is nothing superhuman about a judge. Read the Constitution. It is in plain, unadorned English. The Framers wrote it so we can read it and use it to protect our rights.

      You say Congress had no objections to Obama’s legal excesses? So those legal excesses were okay?

      First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
      Because I was not a Socialist.
      Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
      Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
      Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
      Because I was not a Jew.
      Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. (from https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392)

      Our president is our nation’s chief executive. His job is to enforce the LAW, not to break it.

      Anyway I will get to the rest of your observations as time permits.

      Liked by 1 person

    2. @Doug

      Here are the rest of my comments.

      First lets finish up with https://citizentom.com/2018/08/08/god-given-or-government-given-rights-part-5/#comment-82764

      Glad you got a good laugh out of this post. Also pleased your PC survived.

      In her comment here (https://citizentom.com/2018/08/08/god-given-or-government-given-rights-part-5/#comment-82775), insanitybytes22 deals with the possibility of a Conservative rebellion. Kind obvious once we think about it, but really smart people like IB often just observe what seems obvious after they express it clearly.

      Is there a big Socialist movement in this country? I am always amazed when I have to justify myself on this point. How much creeping Socialism do have to experience before Democrats begin to notice there is a problem? Let’s see where we are at. There is the public education system from Kindergarten all the way up, Social Security, Obamacare on top of Medicare and Medicaid, school loans, the Federal Reserve and all the regulation of the financial sector, freeways (use to have tolls), tons of welfare programs, …. Would you like to see what you can add to the list? If you want to add corporate welfare, I agree that needs to be eliminated too.

      Now for this comment here https://citizentom.com/2018/08/08/god-given-or-government-given-rights-part-5/#comment-82767

      What about my lamentations about what the Founders meant? Is it too much to ask you to read the Constitution and The Federalist Papers? 18th Century Americans could do it, and they could think for themselves. We can’t read? We need nine judges in black robes to tell us what to think?

      When we get a bunch of judges who are not doing their job properly, we are suppose to do something about it. The simple thing is to elect politicians willing to appoint and approve judges who think the Constitution is the law of the land as it was ratified, not the way they wish it had been written.

      Is the term “busybodies” derogatory? Yep! I am the word to describe tyrannical behavior. Considering that, “busybodies” is just about the mildest word I could choose. When you see a bunch of foolish people incompetently trying to run the lives of their neighbors, wasting huge sums, and sending the national debt sky-high, and condemning our progeny to needless debt; what expression would you suggest?

      Liked by 1 person

  4. Ok.. to continue…

    You said…
    “What would a civil war look like? That depends mostly upon how much hatred we allow demagogues to instill into us. Look at the Nazis. Consider the Holocaust. Weep over the Communist’s purges which still occur from time-to-time. Consider the untold millions various tyrants have murdered, committing genocide against their own people. Remember how they destroyed their enemies in mass killings, in gulags, and in concentrations camps. That was civil war.”
    I think you might be confusing political retribution, genocidal racism, and government control, with a true civil war. I don’t recall in these instances you mention the populations rising up in unified discontent in any attempt to remove their oppressive governments. The so-called “enemies” the governments were destroying were for the most part members of the populations racially determined to be an enemy or political “dissidents”… meaning anyone in the population who might have uttered a discouraging word to a neighbor in passing up to and including authors overtly trying to initiate political discontent.

    You said…
    “So why is it that when Liberal Democrats and Progressives insist upon legislating socialist programs there is no basis for compromise?”
    I am guessing you are suggesting the “Liberal Democrats” typically “sneak” these social programs through without any compromise at times when their numbers have dominated Congress? Because that’s the only situation I can even imagine your scenario. I have no idea personally if any of the popular social programs were passed under a liberal-dominated Congress other than Obamacare. I realize your ilk doesn’t like it.. but apparently it’s gotten popular. Trump can apparently get nowhere on it because his own party is apprehensive about just yanking it away with no replacement.

    Regarding your lamentations on what the Founders have meant… the bottom line is pretty much it doesn’t really matter what you think the Founders meant because our current Constitution is adjudicated by the Supreme Court. What they say, goes. The Second Amendment, yet again, is a perfect example. I’m a gun person but I have NO doubt whatsoever what the Founders meant when putting the Second in place… yet the Court has interpreted it differently… and I abide by that as law.

    To finish up here…
    Your five links to justify Obama’s legal excesses… Congress apparently had no objection to his efforts in being over and above his Constitutional authority.. even when the Left dominated Congress. Congress had a choice to assert what authority it wished. Not sure if any of these alleged misappropriations of power passed any Supreme Court scrutiny… but if not, then perhaps ask yourself, why was this never challenged in the Court if it was all bad?

    Just a final thought on your term “busybodies”… they are Americans whose sole fault for you applying that term in a derogatory manner is because they didn’t believe what you believed. You might want to try focusing on exactly what’s going on in the country.. in the here and now… and quit with the obtuse history lessons, same old political admonishments and diatribes that were general in the past… but because of Trump, are totally irrelevant now because he has set the new rules.. for now.

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  5. I sat down to read for digestion your Part 5, Tom… and as I was taking a sip of my diet-whatever I read… “…while his feelings for Trump are hardly rational,” and I nearly spit out my drink all over the screen from laughter. Not being sarcastic here.. I actually thought it was funny.

    Ok.. onward with this… here’s the first “You said”.
    You said….
    “What most people don’t seem to understand is that there is not a dime’s worth of difference between what we call the extreme right and the extreme left. Nazis use race as excuse to hate, and Communists/Socialists use economic class differences. Both support dictatorial socialist regimes. Sadly, it appears that Liberal Democrats just invented identity politics so they would have more excuses to arouse hatred in people. It is such demagoguery that leads to war.”

    Sorry, Tom… I just don’t see this compulsion to assume conspiracy around every political corner. Anyway.. comparing right wing Naziism.. it’s basic Mein Kampf-ian philosophy… with allegedly left wing extremism is certainly not apples and oranges. There’s not a lot of Tiki-torch bearing demonstrators demonstrating for a left-wing dictatorial socialist government spewing some sort of hatred toward all things democratic. Heck, I’m not even sure what that platform would even look like. I would agree both sides with their respective extremes have nutcases likely to explode with some level of violence, but I would contend that while the right wing extremists are promoting white supremacy… the left wing extreme seems more concerned with expressing their anti-Trump feeling rhetoric and not some grand dogma to assert socialist power. Where do you see that exactly? Honestly, Trump is sucking the air out of all the media attention, intentional on his end and not, that there’s no room for some alt-movement promoting socialism. No question there’s a couple socialist-leaning political individuals, like Bernie Sanders, but to presume there’s some big movement seems not true.

    Regarding my post not necessarily being accurate, I will be the first to agree that all any of us can do is surmise how things might turn out. BUT.. having stated that… what I post, in fact, that whole category of “Apocalypse Cogitations” is precisely to set an awareness in that we don’t want to go there. You might presume to think a civil war.. or any war or conflict… can be some sort of “holy” war if for the “right” reasons. I am totally contending we don’t want to go anywhere near a fighting conflict, much less civil violence. Our society is much too vulnerable to self-inflicted wounds. My apocalypse posts are NOT political statements, Tom. They are a warning. If you were disconcerted because of my opening paragraph suggesting a threat I perceived was from a right wing tendency to violence and Trump’s base following Trump blindly as if he were the fuehrer and the lefties fighting back for control.. well… that’s been evident already in some cities.

    Further… you said…
    “Whether we want to admit it or not, government is not a wonderful tool for solving societal problems.”
    True.. I agree.
    “It is primarily an instrument of force, designed to stop some people from doing harm to other people.”
    Well… government is a tool for restraint and setting limitations for the public good. The determination of “harm” is relative and up to the courts, empowered to enforce the limitations.
    “When used properly, government allows each of us the opportunity to do whatever it is that we each think is the “right thing”. However, even when they are in majority, when some busybodies try to use government to use government to force their fellow citizens to do the “right thing”, their supposedly good intentions are leading them on the path to Hell.”
    Representative government in the form of our democratic republic, favors the majority… which is the whole point. Simply because you may fall outside the majority just means your preference isn’t that popular. Having said that, I am not blind to the religious overlap with the government aligning with pro-choice.. or abortion. I have no answer to that… other than our government is not a theocracy (yet) so we defer to the Court for now.

    This reply is long enough for now. I’ll tackle the rest later.

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    1. Doug, you should check out Jonah Goldberg’s book, Liberal Fascism. It explains very clearly how how fascism was all the rage for the Left up until the Nazis claimed its mantle and started doing the horrific things they did to the Jews. Regardless,as Tom says, there’s really no difference between it and Communism/Socialism. It’s all about control, power and force regardless of which party is in charge.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. I most certainly do not understand this presumption that there’s some relationship between democracy, communism, fascism, and whatever other you want to throw into the mix. All are political systems, to be sure, but that’s where the relationship ends. Democracy.. American democracy… has a built in features to inhibit totalitarian grabs at power… our system of checks & balances, term limits, and our individual vote. Tom and his conservative readership want to believe that Obama nearly ran away with the proverbial farm and nearly destroyed the Constitution. Not hardly… and that’s the proverbial sour grapes. If any president has demonstrated a proclivity for tyrannical behavior it’s the orange-haired guy in the Oval Office… which is why so many object to him.

        Now.. if you are simply saying “your guy” is great and the past guy(s) were power hungry, Constitution-destroying, money mongers… that’s just opinion. What you folks are suggesting that has been great about Trump thus far I contend he’s wrecking the country. You feel the opposite. And there it is. Hence the divisive impasse of our times.

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          1. Well, let’s see.. you brought up a book I might read that illustrates Nazi power by 1920’s leftists in Germany… then you suggesting Tom bringing up communism and socialism leading to nasty power. What did I miss?

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          2. @Doug

            Would you mind explaining the difference between Hitler and Stalin? Do you know which of these two had more people murdered? You do know both invaded Poland? Both instigated WWII.

            Stalin was just an ally of convenience. Instead trying to fight both Nazi Germany and Communist Russia, Roosevelt and Churchill chose the farthest away, the least dangerous to us as an ally. Because of geography and Hitler’s designs against Russia, Russia more dangerous to Germany, then our most powerful enemy. That was a cynical decision borne of necessity, not any virtue on the part of the Communists.

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          3. Jeez, Tom.. a history lesson? Think of it this way… what you can present in your knowledge of the Bible and Christian theology I can do the same regarding history. We all have a skill.
            But what does Hitler and Stalin have to do with anything contemporary in American politics?

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          4. @Doug

            When you use the terms “left” and “right”, history is revelent. Actually, language is just a history of what people meant and understood with respect to the noises that they made when they were trying to communicate.

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          5. First you’re confusing Nazism and Fascism, they are similar but not the same. I merely said to check out the book since you seem so sure that Fascism and the Left have nothing to do with each other. That’s factually incorrect.

            Nazism, Communism and Socialism are all different sides of the same coin. Who on earth would disagree with that?

            Liked by 1 person

          6. Uhh.. ok. But I thought we’ve been talking about contemporary American politics… not 1920’s political origins of naziism, communism, and socialism. As with anything else, over time the “pure” forms of anything get diluted into more acceptable variants. Just look at our own reps and dems… there’s been a complete reversal of platform ideology because of the Trumpian effect; litertally topsy-turvey politics. But I have said it before… the one major element that will shift government to more socialistic tendencies is a rising population. It will make our nice low, Trumpian chest thumping unemployment numbers seem like a tidal wave of problems. A pretty 3% of unemployment in a nation with 350 million might be a wonderful stat.. but that 3% will go up in people numbers should the population increase by a third.. by half.. or double. Simple population growth is what will feed socialism in America… and it’s is definitely what is feeding Bernie’s politics and any other “let’s pay everybody’s [fill in the blanks].

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          7. You’re the kept that brought up how the Right is associated with Fascism, I was just doing my job as always and correcting you. 😉

            I agree we have a problem in this country with people’s love affair of Socialism. Nationalism too and neither bode well for the future if both political parties don’t start gaining some control and common sense and booting out the loonies.

            US population growth has been declining for several years. It’s the open borders policy and a drifting away from assimilating to American values that have contribute to so many of our current issues.

            Liked by 1 person

  6. Doug,

    God’s logic does not Mic with man’s logic only because of man’s Vanity to believe we know better than God.

    For example no sin no problems. Any opinion that contradicts” do un]to others”..is mans”opinionors or schemes

    Regards and good will blogging

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Actually I might suggest it’s not “God’s logic” not mixing with man’s logic… but rather “God’s desires” not mixing with man’s logic. God doesn’t require logic if He’s omnipotent. Pretty much like Trump.. the Almighty likely acts on impulse and desire. But in God’s case no one passes judgement and there are no ramifications to His actions.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. You had to bring Trump into this?

        I am a little surprised scatterwisdom did not respond to this one, but perhaps he will. Anyway, what you said about God’s desires and man’s logic certainly has an element of truth. However, the notion of God as impulsive is sort of silly. God invented time.

        Does God require logic? I don’t understand the thoughts of God. I just know He created the universe, and the universe follows certain laws in a logical pattern. However, the Bible suggests God exists outside his creation, and I have no idea what that means.

        Logic is not a word much used by the Bible. The translators seem to prefer the act of using logic, to reason. Logic is only the means to an end, to make wise choices. We learn reason properly so that we can wisely love and obey our Creator.

        Check out https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+2%3A6-16&version=NKJV

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        1. Yeah, well.. I did bring up Trump in a post more or less about the Almighty… although the difference between the two is all about the capital letter being used or not. (I like that one!.)

          I suppose we could say the same goes for bringing up Nazis in the same paragraph as liberals.

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          1. @Doug

            Look up the definition of the extreme right. When you start talking about bozos on the right, you are talking about the KKK and NAZIS. It doesn’t include the Tea Party. Those people are not bozos. The Tea Party is just a bunch of ordinary citizens, people who care enough to vote, write their congressmen, and clean up after themselves after they hold an orderly demonstration.

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          2. Actually.. I said “bonzos”.. but “bozos” works just as well. I was being diplomatic, believe it or not, in saying extreme right. There’s a number of not-so-extreme right who wouldn’t mind a shooting civil war to clean up the gene pool to their ends. I’m sure there are nice and wonderful Teaparty people… and we all know Trump has indicated that Nazis have some good people in their ranks as well. Not sure I get your point.

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          3. @Doug

            Do you ever do any of your own fact checking? Trump has never indicated he supports the extreme right.

            Some politicians try to win office by trashing their opponents. The news media is highly partisan. They participate in what is essentially propaganda warfare, and the corporate interests that own them finance the crap. Because of government controls that include taxes, spending, and regulations; special interests fight tooth and nail over elections. Because of the amount of money involved, many of the contenders don’t care about anything except their own personal self interest. For just a million bucks there are plenty of ambitious people who will sell us out without a qualm, and government controls trillions.

            Even though the lies the treacherous tell are the least of our worries, they are important. We learn who to trust by catching them in their lies. All men will lie to some degree, but those who will lie to destroy another cannot be trusted at all.

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          4. And Trump never says much if anything to separate himself from the far right either. The man makes bigger issues against the races that don’t fit in with America.

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          5. @Doug

            Don’t be dense. Just because some blathering head demands it does not make it the president’s job to comment on everything. How many times does anyone have to say they don’t approve of NAZIS?

            Consider. Along with the Liberal Democrat news media, Obama and his “justice” department assumed every time some black was killed by the police, bigotry was involved, even when the police were black. Why? I don’t know for certain. Sometimes people do things that only make sense to them.

            Two problems resulted. The Obama administration prejudiced the cases before they went to trial. They stirred up racial strife. They encouraged bigots to kill policemen.

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          6. When will you conservatives forget the constant schoolyard defense of Trump’s here-and-now actions or inactions, as not being relevant to any sort of comparison with Obama’s term (“Well, he did it, why can’t I?”)? Different times, different situations, and far different personalities driven by far different moral characters. No comparisons in the least. Sorry.

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          7. Well, there you go with the generalizations again… how can “they” be against equal justice. Do you know for a fact that “they”, in their entirety, are not for equal justice?

            In fact.. I just made a post on just this concept today…

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          8. When you accused me of making generalizations “again”, I thought that funny. Have you ever looked at what you write about Trump.

            What did I say that is not true. Be specific.

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          9. Tom, my reasons have been VERY specific… it’s all about MY interpretation of his behavioral issues from day one. Unfortunately for the country he has fit MY interpretation to a tee. He’s a compulsive liar and incompetent leader. Have you been ignoring my posts?

            Be specific on your generalization?
            “When “they” in aggregate vote for Obama and H Clinton “they” are voting for identity politics. That is voting for injustice.”

            That says it all right there… absolutely no factual foundation of any across-the-board facts of a vote for Obama and/or Hillary is a vote for injustice. It’s ridiculous.

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          10. @Doug

            When you talk about Trump, you just make unspecified, unsupported accusations. I have no trouble listing things Democrats have clearly done that they should not have done, and you want me to vote for them?

            Do you know what identity politics is? Let me put it this way. If a black votes Republican, Democrats call hi,a traitor to his race. A woman? Traitor to her sex. LQGBT? Disabled. Unionized worker. Elderly.

            According to Democrats, you are a privilege white male. Should I accuse you of being a traitor and try to treat you like one? No? Then why do you vote for people who insist upon telling you what to think and how to behave?

            Like

          11. Yes, Tom… my opinion of Trump is entirely made up of my own perception of human behavior.. and it’s armchair interpretation at best as I am no psych professional. All I have to draw on is some schooling, some military service, a fair amount of business ownership and management, and 67 years of riding on this big blue marble as it spins. All true… my opinion on him is not based on any hard-and-fast agenda policies. Now, couple that with my expected and preferred behavior I’d much prefer seeing in any president I would vote for, and Trump falls short… way short in fact.

            Now, in your mind you are comparing an unknown Trump presidency (back during the campaign) with a known person you had no interest in based on her policies (liberal) and her past troubles with Whitewater, Benghazi, those damn 30,000 emails, and some nonsense about their foundation. In spite of all that being unsubstantiated assumptions that she is guilty of everything regardless of no evidence and hence no indictments for same, you still disliked her.. and allowed yourself to feed on the conservative blather that she was never indicted for anything because of some secret corruption network, deep state, corrupted investigative… whatever… or simply assign all her “problems” to a grand liberal conspiracy for whatever purpose.

            On top of her questionable nightmare goals for the country (I’m guessing that was your feeling at the time), there’s all the things Obama did… and that’s a bit better to assign blame because it’s actual policy one could argue; I hate “this” that he did, I hate “that”, that he did; he didn’t do the country any good. And because he did “this” he wants to destroy the Constitution, and because he did “that” he’s trying to avoid the rule of law and by-pass Congress.

            Besides… Hillary as president would just be Obama 2.0 anyway.

            The real issue, Tom, is that even on a “good” day (in past elections when things were not as chaotic) you aren’t a liberal by preference anyway. So using all of the above to justify a reason to vote for Trump because you disliked Hillary (Obama’s) policies for wrecking the country was really besides the point. Better off saying.. “I’d never vote democrat because I’ve always been conservative.” That then would have left you with the republican alternative with Trump.

            So.. fess up, Tom.. and share with me the real reason you voted for Trump… was it simply because he was the single conservative and you are historically a conservative… or… did you honestly vote for Trump in some odd assumption he’d be the lesser of two evils, as if you were perched on some personal moral fence and could have gone either way? I actually think you were in the first option because you are too vehement against liberal politics. In this election… even if Trump was totally offensive to you (as he is to me) you had no choice if you wanted your conservative opinions in the mix.

            I’ve mentioned before, I’m old school republican, Tom… Eisenhower-esque, Reagan-esque. Agenda-wise there is nothing being done by Trump that favors old school republicanism. Rural and Southern democrats are now republicans.. the whole system is topsy-turvy. Both Bush presidencies were not to my preferences… and Baby Bush totally mis-stepped on the conduct of Iraq. I honestly would have favored some of Trump’s policies.. but NOT the way he’s tried pushing them.. especially internationally; his methods are typical to his behavior all his life… and do not belong in the Oval Office. And we’ve not even discussed his admiration of Putin. Jeez, that’s going to be a mess when that is over. Being attacked by another nation.. and Trump is playing games. And his constant lying…. And his betrayal of our institutions… and freedom of speech with his admonitions about the press.

            Forget identity politics. That’s for the “other guy”. You are suggesting that because I am white then I am automatically a member of the white privilege identity group. Well, ok, if that’s the label of white demographics I suppose I do fall into that.. by pure racial assignment. And that means what in the real world?

            Like

          12. @Doug

            Did I like Trump? No.
            https://citizentom.com/2016/04/24/can-we-trust-donald-trump/

            You don’t like Trump so I am not suppose to like Trump? Well, I am still amazed he is president. Blame it on the mass media. They gave him all kinds of free media, probably because they thought he would be the easiest Republican for Hillary to beat.

            I am not going waste bunches of time defending myself. I am not trying to attack you. That’s not the point.

            Those of us who voted for Trump chose between Trump and Clinton. Instead of seeking our votes, Clinton said what she thought of us, “deplorables”.

            Given her contempt, her awful record, and her absurd lies, of course I wanted anyone else to win.
            https://citizentom.com/2016/08/14/how-do-we-know-if-she-is-guilty-target-hillary-clinton/

            We know H. Clinton handled classified information with criminal irresponsibility.

            We know the DOJ just plain refused to prosecute Clinton. The fix was in.

            We know the Clinton crowd corrupted the Democratic Party’s presidential primaries

            We know Obama and Clinton lied about Benghazi. We have them on video telling a us a story they fabricated

            After having given their country decades of devoted public service from the goodness of their hearts, we know Bill and Hillary are worth over two hundred million dollars. Of course, Bill rightfully earned half-million dollar speaking fees, especially from foreign interests, and even though the news media insinuated as much, there is no reason to believe contributions to the Clinton Fund by foreign interests had anything to do with meeting with H. Clinton while she was Secretary of State.

            Like

          13. Oh, BTW, did I mention who actually colluded with the Russians? We did not about this before the election, but we now know who paid for that Steele dossier. It is funny how some are so ready to accuse others of their own crimes.

            Like

          14. Well, Tom, in spite of all your unfactual “conclusions” about Hillary, I accept they are your opinion and a basis for voting for Trump as the lesser of two evils, hence you did answer my curiosity question. Now.. we have experienced over a year of Trump and the man has demonstrated far more “dislike-able” performance issues.. with the greatest being his complete lying to the American people about any number of subjects. He has no credibility… and the President of the United States not having credibility is an abomination to everything American, if not a Christian sin (on any given day Trump violates five of those seven) . So let me ask this…
            Are you one of those screaming, hollering, Trumpians like those who attend his rallys, in support of his every nonsensical utterance? If so, then why.. “because of all the good he has done”? If not, then name me any allegedly “good” thing he has done that has made his abhorrent, divisive presidency worth any of this? Just curious what you feel the trade-off has been.

            Liked by 1 person

          15. @Doug

            It seems to me you are practicing a little slight-of-hand here. Just calling my conclusions about Hillary unfactual doesn’t make it so. The amazing thing is she has gotten away with serious misdeeds that everyone knows about.

            Similarly, you keep complaining about Trump. You make repeated charges, but you don’t even assert anything factual. I am just suppose to understand your complaints?

            Here is an example. Trump is supposedly divisive. Being divisive is not the issue. What matters is what we stand for. Because Abraham Lincoln stood against slavery, the South seceded from the union. Yet we now blame those who stood for slavery, not those who stood against it.

            I have been happy with what Trump stands for and with what he has accomplished. Since Trump assumed office, I think he has done a good job. Perfect? No, but compared to another four years of Obama, it has been great. He has done much better than I expected him to.

            Here are several accomplishments.
            1. Trump has repealed Obama’s executive orders and done his best to rid us of useless, costly regulations. Thanks to the tax cut and a more sensible regulatory regime the economy is humming.
            2. Trump appointed lots of good judges, people who actually take the time to read the law instead of just saying it says what they want it to say. With luck we will soon have a Conservative majority on the Supreme Court.
            3. Trump as not forgotten why he was elected, to fight illegal immigration. Whatever else we may wish to say about Jeff Sessions, he has not recused himself from that battle.

            So am I a Trumpian? Well, I have a MAGA hat, but Northern Virginia is not a great place for Trump rallies. Too many northern transplants and government workers. 😦 Nevertheless, I do campaign for Republicans, especially those on the same page as Donald Trump.

            Like

          16. Then wear your hat with pride, my friend, because the day will come in the not-to-distant future where you will hold it in your hand and reflect on the time political expediency was more important than human morality.

            Like

          17. @Doug

            There is one advantage in losing an election. Can’t be held responsible for the winner. So when I watch The Donald “perform” I roll my eyes and pray more than I would otherwise. It is funny what God will do to get us to pray

            Like

          18. @Doug

            Who do you think Trump’s supporters are, space aliens? We are just silly human beings like everyone else.

            Rolling my eyes heavenward just means I realize our leaders are only human. So am I, and sometimes I roll my eyes at my own performance.

            In spite of the nonsense out the news media, it is rather obvious Trump is brilliant and hardworking. It is also apparent he is neither extraordinarily wise or evil. I think he is both ambitious and that he cares about the country. I just pray his better angel persuades him more effectively that that devious one.

            Read 1 Samuel 8 some time. The problem with democracy is that we tend to pick people who just look the part of a good leader. We don’t necessarily pick good leaders.

            Sometimes we get lucky. During the American Revolution, we had an odd bit of good fortune. Because our nation was small, our people had leaders who were also their neighbors. So they knew them fairly well.

            In addition, it was a good bet that those 13 rebellious colonies would not beat the British Empire in a war. So the ambitious were more likely to side with the Brits. Look the problems George Washington had. His greatest success was just keeping the continental army together long enough to wear down the resolve of the British Empire. When the French navy helped us at Yorktown, the Brits finally decided they had better things to do with their troops.

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  7. Oh this is such a good post Tom that hits on so many points, thank you! I will never understand why the Left believes so strongly in the benevolence of government. It is and only ever was, force and the larger and more powerful it becomes , the bigger the threat to its citizenry it becomes.

    One contributing factor is the demonizing of opposing political views, thus those wanting to reform Medicare beyonce folks who want to throw granny off a cliff and people desiring to wean people off government dependency in to more fulfilling self directed lives become selfish haters of the poor. Identity politics thrown on top of this nonsense is just adding jet fuel to the fire. It has to stop and it will but the question is whether violence will force that hand or not.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. @Tricia

      Thank you for such a supportive comment.

      I wish the average citizen would read two books, the Bible and The Federalist Papers. Of course, the Bible is in a class of its own, but The Federalist Papers explains the reasons why the Constitution was written the way it was. The Constitution was written with a understanding of the fallen nature of man.

      We are at each other’s throats because too many are insisting that government should make choices we each need to make for ourselves.

      Liked by 1 person

  8. Doug,

    Tom is giving a solution to end division rather than leaving it up for opinion.

    Problem is most people prefer to think they know more than their Creator, otherwise known as Vanity, all is Vanity.

    Regards and good will blogging

    Liked by 1 person

    1. At the risk of getting into a religious back-und-forth… if God created man then does it not follow suit that God also created imperfection, hence sin.. and thus vanity? Admittedly logic and religion don’t mix, I know, but it just cried out at me.

      Liked by 1 person

  9. Jeez, Tom.. your post here has more holes in it than my spaghetti colander. More to the point.. you have an strong cynicism of government in general, and a biased way in presenting your assertions (we are all biased because that is the basis for opinion anyway; it’s just that you grab from such biased sources all the time).
    When I post, at best (or worst), I present it as “my opinion and this is why I believe it to be this way” and the reader can simply buy into it, object to it, or ignore it as the blatherings of an aging old fart.
    You post with the idea that “this is what I believe in and everyone should believe as I do because the reasons are so obvious and here they are… and oh, by the way, I’m a Christian. so here’s a few Bible quotes to support my claims.”
    Now, in the world of blogging neither matters much and and my approach isn’t any more valid than your’s; we do what we do and we write what we write. But my point here, buddy, is that what you write requires so much complex rebuttal.. and I’ve said often I will not debate religion so how you wish to handle Biblical verse as a Christian to support your political thought is perfectly up to you. While admittedly this post doesn’t have quoted verse… I certainly have no issue with your last paragraph.
    But I will give you this much… Jesus himself had no direct commentary on government and how it should be as he was wandering around before his demise on the cross… would I be correct? I mean, He ticked off the local Roman constabulary by preaching about an alt-ruler, but He never overtly criticized government of any kind?

    I will reply more specifically to your post when I get to work later today.

    Like

    1. Actually there are many areas of the Bible Doug that talk about government. Admittedly, Jesus did say few words about it “render unto Caesar…”, and not much else, but The Old Testament does and clearly outlines government as institution ordained by God. The OT prophesies what the NT declares so I don’t see how any Christian philosophizing about government could not think about scripture when doing so. It would be hypocritical not to.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Yep I am aware of the other Biblical references to government.. since Tom mentioned Jesus I wasn’t aware He had a lot to say on the subject. Thanks!

        Like

        1. @Doug

          You did not address what I wrote. You complained about style. With respect to what is right and what is wrong, I argue from a Biblical prospective. Otherwise, I just explain what I think will work. Regardless, I try to be logical. So could you be a bit more specific about the holes in my logic? I won’t insist you argue about the Bible. We can just talk about what government is supposed to do and why.

          Side note: The Bible is the inspired word of God. Jesus is God. Whatever the Bible says about government, Jesus endorsed because He endorsed the whole Bible.

          Liked by 1 person

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