A New Definition Of Hate

In his post, Pastor Randy provides his views on the Nashville Statement and some (not all) of the criticism of it. Specifically, he comments on a post written by John Pavlovitz. Pastor Randy’s complaint is that some people, like Pavlovitz, are too ready to call the people who disagree with them haters.

Over a year ago I wrote a post commenting on Pavlovitz’s views on the Bible (=> https://citizentom.com/2016/01/24/observations-on-a-liberal-christian/). I think Pavlovitz’s views on the Bible are terribly confused. Drama? That he is good at. Logic? I wish I had seen more evidence of it.

Anyway, in my post on the Nashville Statement (=> https://citizentom.com/2017/09/03/of-friendly-fire-and-misplaced-sympathy/), I responded to the views of some Christians who don’t affirm the LGBTQ “lifestyle”, but they still see the Nashville Statement as judgemental. These people fear the Nashville Statement is some kind of unprovoked assault on the LGBTQ community. I think their concerns illustrate the power of the mass media to caricature any group it opposes. The ministers who endorsed the Nashville Statement generally have better things to do than hate people who are seriously confused about their sexual identity, but that does not fit the news media’s narrative. Unfortunately, it is easy to take the news media too seriously.

In his post, Pastor Randy criticizes the diatribes of hatred coming from some Christians who oppose the Nashville Statement. Some of these, like Pavlovitz, have seen fit to affirm the LGBTQ “lifestyle”, a lifestyle choice the Bible obviously condemns.

With the people Pastor Randy is talking about, dialogue will be very difficult. When people start calling you hateful and putting their own words in your mouth, they are not listening, and they have no real interest in doing so.

Kingdom Pastor


OK, I admit it.  Sometimes I don’t keep up with all the current events.  The past 7 days, though, I have a good, a very good excuse.  But then, don’t we all?  Well, I feel like mine has some merit.  Last Wednesday I had a heart ablation from which I am recovering very well.  Then there’s this thing called HARVEY.  As our tribe’s (some call them denominations) Disaster Response & Recovery Coordinator there is much work I have to do in this role as a Bond Servant of Jesus.

This morning I checked my Twitter feed and was seeing all this stuff about The Nashville Statement.  It was a diatribe of hate, so I decided to read it for myself rather than read what others said about.  I know, how dumb can I be!  Wanting to read it for myself rather than trust all those progressive voices telling me…

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19 thoughts on “A New Definition Of Hate

  1. “If you, like I , believe that the Word of God is God breathed an infallible…then it is ABSOLUTELY crystal clear on the matter. ”

    Here’s one issue,Way. I am a “nothing but the blood of Jesus” kind of Christian. You know what saves me? The blood of Jesus. I am not saved because I signed all the right petitions on the internet. I am not saved because my politics are perfectly in line with the SBC.

    Also, my signing the Nashville declaration will save not one single homosexual. My signing the declaration will also not silence one single more liberal Christian, nor will it shut down the LGBT lobby. So I must ask myself what I would hope to gain by signing it. I have yet to come up with a suitable answer that actually honors God.

    1. It is probably not a great idea to say who and who is not going to heaven. Will some homosexuals make it into heaven? Who are we to decide? The main thing is that the Bible calls the practice of homosexuality a sin. So we don’t want to do that.

      Will have to look at the video tomorrow. Getting near my bedtime.

      Just remember it is a free country. If we start making saying and doing stupid and vile things against the law, it won’t be long before it is not a free country. Vengeance is the Lord’s. He will punish those who insist upon twisting His Word. When it has to stop, He will.

      1. I only know what my Bible says. I will not add to it NOR will I take away from it. Remember 75% of the seed sown in the parable of the sower failed. People get hung up on the love thy neighbor commandment…but please remember there was a mother commandment that proceeded it. Love they Lord thy God … love Him MORE than your sin…more than your own self…and love the God that’s in the Bible…not one we create by clipping, snipping, and molding the book into what we want it to say.

        1. @The Way Online

          Pride is the sin that caused Satan’s fall. It is the sin we have most to fear. When we expect everyone to believe exactly what we believe, that is pride. Wherever people have a choice, it does not happen.

          When we read the Bible, we have to read it with humility. The book was written for sheep. Dumb and stupid sheep. We have to be careful to understand what it says and not to find more in it than what it says. Even then, because it is of God, and we don’t understand God, we get confused. We are just dumb and stupid sheep.

          One thing that comes across loud and clear is that He is the Shepherd, the Savior, the King, and so forth. We are just sheep.

          We worship Him, we spread His Gospel. and we love each other. When we must fight, we stand and drive off the foe with His Word, but we don’t go looking for fights. We are just sheep.

          God saves. Not us. God is the warrior. Not us. God judges. Not us. We just listen for His voice, enjoy our fellowship in Him, and follow Him. And because we are just sheep, that is more than difficult enough.

          1. The Lord knows my heart, I am not driven by pride, but love. On the great day of judgement I have plenty to stand before God for…I have been sexually immoral, adulteress, lied, haughty, hateful, sinful to the core. If Paul were here I’d wrestle him for the title of chief sinner….

            I’m only doing what the Bible says to do…it does say for us to call people out to repentance. It also says we will be hated for it…that’s fine by me.

          2. Don’t we give our testimony as an example to others? With our words and deeds don’t we say: “This is how I as one of His sheep follow Him”? Don’t we point to the Bible and say: “Here is the Book that tells us how to follow Him”?

            Because God and His Bible condemn sin, the unrepentant hate us for reminding them of our Lord and His Book. Yet don’t they hate us without a cause? We do not judge; we just say that He will judge. Unless we repent, He will judge us as we have judged others. It is their own measure for judgement that they fear and hate.

            We lay both our own sins and the sins committed against us at the foot of His cross. Is that not how we know we are forgiven? We put our faith in Him. Is that not how we know we are saved?

            So why does the Wisdom of God puzzle and mystify us? Because the Wisdom of God is Love? Not me?

          3. James 5:19-20

            My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

            Paul said, “Repent” (2 Cor 7:9)
            “yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.” – 2 Corinthians‬ ‭7:9-10‬ ‭NIV‬‬

            Peter said “Repent” (Acts 2:38)
            “38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit…..

            …..40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”” – Acts‬ ‭2:38, 40‬ ‭NIV‬‬

            John the Baptist said “Repent” (Matt 3:2)
            “and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.””

            Jesus said “Repent” (Matt 4:17; 9:13; Mark 1:15; Luke 5:42, ),
            “From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” – Matthew‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

            ““The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!” – Mark‬ ‭1:15‬ ‭NIV‬‬

            ” I have not come to call righteous ones, but sinners, to repentance.” – Luke 5:32

            apostles said “Repent” (Mark 6:12)
            “They went out and preached that people should repent.” – Mark‬ ‭6:12‬ ‭NIV‬‬

            The Bible INSTRUCTS us to call sinners to repentance…

            “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” – 2 Peter 3:9

            Why repent? It leads to salvation, it leads to a SOLID foundation. This is Gods fatherly love, those he loves he corrects, those he saves he disciplines. Salvation and REPENTANCE are hand in hand – as I earlier noted Paul wrote “Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.”

            “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.” – Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭

            …..this is pretty cut and dry stuff. We are in a spiritual war – I cannot sit back and take a passive approach to the salvation of the lost. If God wanted that, there would be no evangelism today, no missionaries headed into remote lands, no martyrs being beheaded on beaches…no…we are called to work the harvest…to gather WITH the Lord…he even says…he who does not gather with me…scatters.

          4. This is pretty cut and dry stuff? Does everyone see it that way?

            We are in a war, but with whom? Think about the bloody religious wars between people who called themselves Christians. Imagine the sheer stupidity of executing a pacifist, but people did it.

            The Bible says Jesus was full of grace and truth. Why? How did Jesus exhibit both at the same time?

            Consider every one of those verses you cited. Is a sinner the enemy? What is your role in saving another sinner? When does God take over? How do we model Jesus by being full of grace and truth?

            Do I have the answers? What I think is that we each have to study the Bible, consult with each other, and pray. When we ask in Jesus’ name, the Holy Spirit illuminates the Bible for us.

          5. It is a spiritual war. Started in Genesis 3:15 between Satan and the woman’s seed (Jesus) the man now fallen, his sinful nature separated him from God. We see the Old Testament law given by God to reconcile sinful man to him through ritualistic and moral law. Atonement made through a priest with the blood of animals….

            God sent Jesus to end our failure in self righteousness. He sent Jesus to reconcile us via the ULTIMATE BLOOD ATONEMENT…We were sinners, we could not approach God or be present in his holiness…therefore in the Old Covenant we had to go to a priest who entered into the Holy of holiest and spoke to God on our behalf (Jesus became our Heavenly Priest from the Order of Melchizedek, the veil that separated the Holy of Hokies split while he died on the cross) JESUS RECONCILED US – He made us able to stand before God, he bore the wrath of God for my sins, your sins, for all who come to him and repent. No longer does God come down into a manmade tabernacle carried on poles to dwell…he now comes down from heaven and lives in us…WE ARE THE TEMPLE.

            We are in spiritual warfare against the enemy….the devil.

            Ephesians 6:11-17
            11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

            We are wrestling with him first and foremost for our own spiritual well being, secondly we go to war for those that are our family, friends, neighbors…we go to war for our leaders, for our countries etc…in Intercessory prayer…we fight in the Spiritual Realm…the Word is our sword – it defends and protects…the Word is God

            John 1:1 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

            The Bible says Jesus was full of grace and truth. Why? How did Jesus exhibit both at the same time?

            Gods truth is absolute. The law is absolute, Gods Word does not change because God does not lie. If it is written…it is so. We are born sinners because of the fall. God created a JUST way in which we could be reconciled to him through Jesus. In order to stand in his holiness without being destroyed we had to be cleansed of our sin or we would have been destroyed. In the Old Testament people died if they entered the Tabernacle and the presence of a God incorrectly…nothing changes about God…his holiness will obliterate anything unrighteous. He is so holy Moses couldn’t even look at him without being destroyed only could Moses look upon his backside. So here is the GRACE of God – he made a way when he did not have too save us or make our salvation so much less of a yoke than the Old Covenant of ritualistic moralistic atonement…by his GRACE he made a New Covenant with us through Christ.

            The New Covenant says that whoever REPENTS AND CALLS ON THE LORD AND BELIEVES HE IS THE SON OF GOD SENT TO ATONE OF OUR SINS IS SAVED BY FAITH. But he calls us to REPENT of our sins to salvation. Repentance is not just saying I’m sorry, repentance is a gut wrenching KNOWING of your personal depravity in sin. It’s the moment we are broken apart in front of the Lord, the moment we see ourselves in the light of Gods Holiness, the moment we see just how flawed, how sinful, how disgusting our sinful nature TRULY is…..it’s the moment we KNOW we need God to save us from this depravity of humanity that indwells us…

            “I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance” (Luke 5:32).
            “Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish,” (Luke 13:3). “All men every where,” according to God’s requirement “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:” (Acts 17:30), are commanded “to repent.” God is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9b)

            In the Parable of The Rich Man & Lazarus …

            19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
            20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
            21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
            22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
            23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
            24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
            25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
            26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
            27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
            28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
            29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
            30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
            31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

            The rich man begs to go back to warn his family to repent so they do not come to hell when they die…

            We model Jesus by loving people enough to tell them the TRUTH – God sent his only begotten Son to save us from eternal damnation and separation. He wants us to be reconciled to him, his grace in this provision is ENORMOUS. REPENT and be saved.

            This was the most gracious gift. God wanted us in heaven with him, so he sent heaven to earth to make a way for us to go home. This is Gods grace, this is Gods Love, this is Gods mercy…he made a way for us to come to him through his own sons blood. This is the love, grace and mercy Jesus extended to those around him. He called sinners to repentance to bring them home for eternity.

            Grace was given to call you to repentance…and grace was given in the atonement sacrifice Gods only Son…grace is a beautiful gift from God. I agree in the reading our Bible and praying to the Holy Spirit to reveal its truth to our mind. Human love can never compare to Gods Love, we fail God when we run his love through the filter of our human mind – Gods Love is absolute. It is the all knowing, all protecting, all desiring mind of the Godhead Father. It’s not a greasey grace love. It is Just, pure, righteous, perfect love.

    2. That homosexual “minister” is very self composed and clever, but he is being preposterous. The early church did not know anything about homosexuality? That is equivalent to saying they did not live among pagans, which they most certainly did. Unfortunately, most people know so darn little about history and the Bible.

      The Bible condemns temple prostitution because it existed. If the writers of the Bible knew nothing about homosexuality, why would they condemn it? Does the Bible approve of consensual same-sex sex and disapprove of non-consensual same-sex sex? No.

      The homosexual “minister” also contradicts himself. He says he respects the Bible as Word of God, but then he suggests God did not understand homosexuality. In fact, he says what Paul about homosexuality is wrong, but wasn’t Paul inspired by God?

      For the sake of his rationalizations, that homosexual “minister” renders the scriptures useless. If we can pick and choose what we want to believe, they are useless. What matters is how we feel about right and wrong.

      The homosexual “minister” does cite any of the scriptures to justify his case because none of scripture would serve his purpose. Instead, he suggests the whole Bible somehow serves his purpose. If you have not read the Bible, I suppose that might make sense.

      Still, the homosexual “minister” is very clever. If you are not familiar with the Bible, he sounds reasonable, and most people have not read the Bible. Nevertheless, given what he says about the scriptures, if you believe him, then what of use is the the Bible? Given the way he interprets scripture, of what use is the Bible?

      The black minister did a good job, BTW. The reference to the following scripture in Part 2 was brilliant.

      Ecclesiastes 1:9 New King James Version (NKJV)

      9 That which has been is what will be,
      That which is done is what will be done,
      And there is nothing new under the sun.

      The key phrase is “under the sun”. That phrase refers to life without God.

      The homosexual “minister” is not revealing anything new. He speaks of his life under the sun. He has no way of demonstrating his “new” revelations come from God.

      When the Apostle Paul revealed something new, that was a new covenant from from Jesus, that is, God. To authenticate his preaching, Paul performed many miracles.

      For those who are interested, here is Part 2.

      I don’t much about Pastor Gino Jennings, but here is his web site.
      => https://www.truthofgod.com/

      1. The danger is in the fact that the homosexual minister is very self composed and clever and as you stated many are biblically illiterate, he paints a humanistic approach that says we can go with what we feel verses what we find in the Bible…

        Even if it’s contradictory…

        Hence why I feel it is important for the church to define its beliefs…to make a concrete model of what is biblically defined as a marriage and what the Bible says is determined by God to be sanctified and blessed. A man/ female heterosexual union resulting in marriage.

        This is the reason, because without the Christian church defining a clear statement via the Bible…here comes a clever and manipulative world to invade our church with their own “it feels good it must be from God” message…which is producing now “ministers” who attract congregations which are taught this apostasy.

  2. I honestly don care what any individual says on the matter. If you, like I , believe that the Word of God is God breathed an infallible…then it is ABSOLUTELY crystal clear on the matter. Is God judgmental or hateful … I think he is Sovereign and I don’t need the world to affirm what HE said…I know what the Word says on the matter. I read the Nashville Statement – it was Biblically on point. I signed it…

    I watched a gay Pastor butcher he Bible so badly the other night, twisting he Gospel in such a perverse way…that is time to make a mark in the sand…this apostasy has grown into a movement that WILL give people a false sense of salvation…the Bible says homosexuals WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of heaven…so I couldn’t care less who thinks that’s mean or hateful…that’s GODS Word…he is just.

    Leviticus 18:22 ESV
    You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13 ESV
    If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV
    Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    Romans 1:26-28 ESV
    For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

    Jude 1:7 ESV
    Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

    Mark 10:6-9 ESV
    But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’ ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”

    1 Timothy 1:10 ESV
    The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

    Romans 1:26-27 ESV
    For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ESV
    Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    Romans 1:27 ESV
    And the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    1 Corinthians 7:2 ESV
    But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

    1 Corinthians 6:9 ESV
    Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

    1 Timothy 1:10-11 ESV
    The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

    1 Kings 14:24 ESV
    And there were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations that the Lord drove out before the people of Israel.

    Genesis 19:1-38 ESV
    The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth and said, “My lords, please turn aside to your servant’s house and spend the night and wash your feet. Then you may rise up early and go on your way.” They said, “No; we will spend the night in the town square.” But he pressed them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house. And he made them a feast and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.” …

    Romans 1:32 ESV
    Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

  3. Crazy world we’re living in these days, Tom. Everyones a hater and everyone is a perpetual victim, too. John Pavlovitz has been on quite a roll for a few years now, he just hates, totally despises all the haters who hate-hate. There is so much hate and irony coming from that man I just have to laugh sometimes.

    Pastor Randy is pretty awesome. I enjoy reading him.

    I have still have some objections to the Nashville statement, but nothing close to “hate.” 🙂

    1. @insanitybytes22

      Crazy world we’re living in these days, Tom. Everyones a hater and everyone is a perpetual victim, too.

      There is a frightful thing about demonizing another human being or group of human beings. When we do that we are giving ourselves an excuse for destroying them. The Bible gives us reasons for separating ourselves from dogs and swine (Matthew 7:6), but vengeance belongs to the Lord. We can protect ourselves from people who insist upon harming others. We can punish and even execute people who insist upon harming others, but Jesus made it clear we don’t hate people, just their sins.

      I read your post, => https://insanitybytes2.wordpress.com/2017/08/30/could-i-be-anymore-vague/. I was confused. So I went back and read the Nashville Statement. I was still confused.

      What is this all about?

      I say “weird” because I am still reeling from this attempt they made to completely redefine the entire nature of the trinity, to assign a hierarchy declaring Eternal Submission of the Son, so we would all know who the Boss was. Somebody has to be in charge, right? What happens when the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have an argument? Whose the Boss?

      Wait, wut?

      You may laugh if you want, but it gets much better. “Sanctified testosterone.” Yes, that’s a real thing. The heart of the matter is that they are trying to establish lines of authority, primarily ones that put men in charge, in headship, in a hierarchical order that pretty much declares all women in submission to all men at all times. Surely that must be biblical and Godly, right? I mean, we’ll change the very nature of the trinity to help reflect that if we have to!

      Communication is a much more complex process than most of us realize. Why don’t we see the complexity? Well, most of us just do it without giving it much thought. We learn how to communicate through trial and error. What “works” is what we keep doing.

      Why do I bring that up? Since you live up in Washington state, my guess is that you probably don’t know very much about Southern Baptists. So you are probably operating with preconceptions (what we commonly refer to as prejudices) that have more reality in myth than in fact. What prejudices? I can only guess, but I do know how the mass media portrays Baptists.

      Given what you said, my guess is that you think Baptists think women are second class, that Baptists want their women barefoot and pregnant. Of course, Southern Baptists generally don’t think women should be in official ministerial positions, but that is also true of Catholics and other Christian sects. Nevertheless, I don’t think that is because Baptists regard women as inferior, and the Nashville Statement goes out of its way to say as much.

      One of the things I have enjoyed doing is listening to J. Vernon McGee’s Through the Bible series. He was a Conservative Minister with Presbyterian background. Since much of the Presbyterian Church went off in a very Liberal direction, I think he abandoned it (I suppose he would say they abandoned Jesus.). Anyway, after being Presbyterian minister, he led nondenominational churches. Some Presbyterians can actually be quite Conservative and get along well with Baptists.

      McGee positively adored his lady. He saw her job as bringing their children to Jesus, and he left no doubt that he saw that calling as as of prime importance.

      McGee observed something I have never heard another minister mention. Look through the books that tell us about the kings of Israel and Judah. Those books tell us the name of the mother of each king. McGee believed that was God’s way of crediting the mother for doing a good or a bad job of raising her son.

      Are the churches that prohibit women in the ministry right or wrong? I don’t know. I just know men and women are different, and many women strongly desire to stay home with their children when they are young. So I don’t see much point in condemning or praising churches who think differently. If women see it as an unjustified restriction, they can join another church. I think what matters is having the choice.

      1. Tom,Tom,Tom, you should know me better than that by now. Whatever am I going to do with you? 🙂

        Actually in this neck of the woods I am the rabid right winger, the puppy killer,the root of all evil, the Trump supporter, so I get the stereotypes.

        I actually swing the other direction, I don’t think the SBC take it far enough and I think they sometimes practice more politics than theology. ESS is just one example of a somewhat casual approach to theology, IMO.

        I actually don’t want to see women pastoring churches and being elders,not because we aren’t capable, but because that’s usually a sign the men have found something more important to do with themselves and in my mind that shouldn’t be. Biblically we put men in charge of churches for a reason. It is their responsibility.

        A lot of those very popular, book authoring,TV pastors, did not stand up for theology when it mattered but they’ll stand up for a political position. I don’t trust them for that very reason. I also dislike the concept of salvation by signing on line declarations. I know that is a bit of an exaggeration but just the same a tiny handful of people have been promoting precisely that. Our modern world is very appearances oriented, as if faith is all about just clicking on all the right things on face book and signing the Nashville Declaration.

        I was quite pleased when the SBC signed a denouncement against the more racist and vile parts of the Alt Right. That was pretty cool. Unfortunately some of the people who objected to denouncing racism are now all gung ho to denounce sexual sins. I consider that to be a lack of integrity.

        Regardless, I don’t “hate” them, I don’t believe they’ve done some great evil, I just want to see some more critical thought and discussion going on. There are some pastors I rather like, far more reformed and conservative than the SBC who will be weighing in and will probably help to shape my thoughts on the matter.

        1. @IB

          I think the word incorrigible describes me too well. I took me over 5 decades to figure out the Bible makes sense.

          Prejudice is a rather normal thing. Basically, we all need to examine our assumptions from time-to-time. Where we run into serious problems is when we are unwilling to do so. That is one reason we need to love (agape love) each other. When we care for someone, we are more likely to reexamine our assumptions about them. It took me awhile to understand that, and I suppose I am still learning.


          Anyway, I am still confused by your response to the Nashville Statement, but I never had the notion that you hate Baptists.

          I am going have to contemplate how you think ESS relates to the Nashville Statement. ESS is a bit of Christian theology I have not given much thought. Since I don’t think we understand the Trinity that well it never occurred to me to study something nobody understands. Of course, the absence of data does not stop people from coming up with theories and pronouncing them incontrovertible truths.

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