OF FRIENDLY FIRE AND MISPLACED SYMPATHY

Note the ropes and rings, which keep the thing from recoiling too far! (from here)

From time-to-time we will find ourselves disagreeing with people we respect. What is particularly funny is when both sides on a debate essentially agree but think of the other side as a loose cannon. Such is the charge insanitybytes22 levels in her post, “Nashville Statement Takes Evangelicals the Wrong Direction”, against the Nashville Statement.

What is the Nashville Statement? Well, here is the beginning of a statement that describes it.

CBMW Releases Coalition Statement on Biblical Sexuality

August 29, 2017

NASHVILLE – The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (CBMW) announced August 29th the release of The Nashville Statement, an evangelical coalition statement on biblical sexuality.

CBMW convened a meeting of evangelical leaders on August 25th that was hosted by the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission during its national conference. The meeting included a coalition of scholars, pastors, and other leaders who discussed and endorsed The Nashville Statement. The statement, comprised of 14 affirmations and denials, addresses issues related to human sexuality, “in the hope of serving Christ’s church,” according to the statement’s preamble. (continued here)

Was the statement a good idea? Well, everything is debatable. So I participated in the debate on ‘s post. Mel Wild sort of took the lead in assailing the Nashville Statement. Here is about as harsh as he got.

Mel Wild said:
September 2, 2017 at 1:16 pm
I agree with the articles. I picture the people yelling at John Candy in “Planes, Trains, and Automobiles”, “Hey! You’re going the wrong way!” But, seriously, it is a very difficult issue to navigate and making “line in the sand” statements only makes things worse.

We have to stop thinking our main job is to be the world’s moral police. Jesus didn’t address these issues at all with the world. He taught and showed them the Father’s love for humanity.

Yup, this statement smacks more of Phariseeism than following Christ.

What are the articles agrees with? cites two articles against Nashville Statement in her post.

I was not too happy with the way the debate was going, but at one point  cited 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 to support his position (see here).

1 Corinthians 5:11-13 New King James Version (NKJV)

11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

That passage gave me an idea, but not the idea intended. So here is how I responded.

Citizen Tom said:

September 3, 2017 at 5:26 am

@Mel

Thank you for your reply.

I spend most of my life confused about what is going on in other people’s heads. I am not even certain what is going on in my own mind. So I am content, if not relieved, that God will do the judging and not me. All I know for certain is I am a sinner, and I need Jesus to finish the work He has begun in me. So I share your feeling, but we disagree about the nature of the problem.

I think I understand why you chose 1 Cor.5:11-13, but by bringing that passage to light, you just did more to justify the Nashville Statement than anything I or thewayonline posted. Please reconsider what it says. We are not suppose to judge the sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler, just throw them outside the church? In other words, we cannot tolerate their behavior. If we judge someone guilty of this intolerable behavior, we must disassociate ourselves from this person. Their soul? God will judge.

Doesn’t 1 Cor.5:11-13 make the Nashville Statement look mild by comparison?

Let’s go back to the problem. Perhaps you understand the moral situation, but have you thought through the politics? Large numbers of people in this country have made sex; the power of the state; whatever stuff they can beg, borrow or steal; and the pride of self their gods. These people have determined they are either going to force the idols of their church upon us or destroy us. Whatever they have to do they will impose their beliefs upon us and our children, or they will eliminate us.

Does that sound extreme? Too unloving? Maybe, but that is where totalitarian movements end up. What does it mean when people are unrepentant in their sins? It means there is nothing to negotiate. The only way to resolve our differences is the application of force.

What does 1 Cor.5:11-13 tell us to do? Well, since Paul had someone specific in mind, it might help to read all of 1 Corinthians 5 and 2 Corinthians 2:5-11. Because the church the man Paul spoke of was able to ostracize him, they were able to help drive the man to repentance. Yet if the LGBTQ people have their way, even calling incest a sin could become a hate crime. Then churches could not talk about such problems, and ostracizing an unrepentant sinner would just get the pastor sued and thrown in jail.

You mentioned this is politicized problem, that there is an agenda pushing the LGBTQ movement. That is the crux of the problem. Those people don’t like the Christian church. They detest being reminded that what they do is a sin. Instead, they demand they we glorify their behavior as wholesome and loving, when it is not. They clearly will use the force of government to impose their agenda, and they are having considerable success.

You want an example? Look at the number of abortions. When our government uses our tax dollars to fund abortions, the people behind the “free love” movement implicate the rest of us in their sin and use our money to fund their political campaigns. Yet we are not supposed to complain because that would be judging them? Only our mass media could make something so preposterous sound reasonable.

To protect our family, friends, and neighbors — to protect the integrity of our churches — we must oppose what these people are trying to do. Otherwise, we will not be able to do what 1 Cor.5:11-13 says we are supposed to do.

What is a “Red Letter Christian”? This link provides a more thoughtful and complete description of the meaning of the phrase than I would provide.

=> https://www.gotquestions.org/red-letter-Christians.html

So who are the loose cannons? Who is behaving like Pharisees? Well, since I am pure and perfect it must be everyone else.

😉

Well, of course that is not true, but this is an unavoidable debate, and encouraging such a debate among serious Christians is all the Nashville Statement can do.

I don’t doubt and take the Bible seriously. I don’t even doubt they have the courage to take a stand for Jesus and speak out. What I regret is that they don’t seem to grasp that that is what the signers of the Nashville Statement wish to do. There is no point in going after the signers of the Nashville Statement as if they were guilty of something. Just because we are Christians does not mean we have to list all our own sins before we say someone else is doing something that is sinful.

When Jesus charged the Pharisees with legalism, instead of following what the Bible teaches, these men were clearly making up their own rules. That is not what the signers of Nashville Statement have done. So it is inappropriate to charge them with Phariseeism. In fact, the signers of the Nashville Statement could easily reverse the accusation. Personally, I don’t want to go there.

When Christians disagree, it is best to see what the Bible says and to do our best to practice what it teaches. Sometimes we will still disagree, but when it clearly doesn’t fit the bill can’t we  dispense with charges of Phariseeism?

When it comes to LGBTQ “rights” we are contending against a strong and well organized political movement. That is an observable fact. When many LGBTQ advocates don’t want Christians to practice their faith in accordance with the dictates of their conscience, that is a problem, and some sort of response is required. A line in the sand? Perhaps. Is that not why some Christians became martyrs? They refused to disobey the commands of Jesus Christ. Do we have to wait until we actually have people being martyred before we draw a line in the sand? What does the Bible say about that?

27 thoughts on “OF FRIENDLY FIRE AND MISPLACED SYMPATHY

  1. So, we’ve gone from a request for tolerance to demanded acceptance, to (now, apparently) demanded endorsement. A marriage contract is endorsement. Not tolerance, not even acceptance, outright endorsement.
    And now (some) Christians are demanding endorsement from the Church and calling those who would object “Pharisees”.
    Maybe too much social media is interfering with basic critical thinking skills.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. It could be I’m reading it wrong…but I read the Nashville statement and it essentially says, “We endorse this, not that”. That’s it. I don’t see the terrible dilemma.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. Sorry for the string of posts, just reading through the thread and IB says the following: “Good point, Mel. It’s a real conundrum because when people are going the wrong way, they are seldom doing it out of a simple, “I had no idea this was wrong!” I’m thinking of alcoholics here and how ineffective it is to just say, “hey, you should stop drinking!”

        Okay, but…no one is suggesting (or even worse, demanding) the Church endorse a marriage between them and their liquor bottle.

        Liked by 1 person

        1. I don’t think Mel and IB think highly of the LGBTQ agenda. I see the problem here as kind of like expecting a pacifist to support a war. Not only won’t the support it, they will get angry with you for wanting to fight. Angry pacifists puzzle me, but that is what you get. However, if the other side actually side actually is evil, pacifists don’t do sabotage, and they have a good record of providing support that is not related to combat. Are Mel and IB pacifists? I don’t think so. Check out IB’s comment below.

          What advocates for the LGBTQ agenda want, is, of course, quite vile. Unfortunately, our school systems, mass media, and even some churches are dressing up this pig and putting tons of makeup and lipstick on it. I suppose that will sound mean to some, but those people need to think the matter through. Fornication, whatever the form, can seriously mess people up in multiple ways.

          Liked by 1 person

  2. Ha! “Friendly fire,” I like that Tom. Fortunately unlike real war, our friendly fire is unlikely to result in tragedy.

    Something I try to remember, when Christians are arguing politics or whatnot, at the root of our disagreements is always, how best to love people. That is a truth that we often forget, but how astounding it is when you begin to see it. We take that for granted a lot in the West and tend to forget that what is natural to us as people is to fight over stuff, territory, status, power. Nobody ever fights over how best to love people,people who aren’t even “you.” That’s just crazy! Also,very Christian. 🙂

    There are a whole bunch of undercurrents running behind the Nashville declaration that many people are probably unaware of. The theological debate over ESS for example. Whole books have been written about that.The recent struggle to get the SBC to denounce some of the worst of the racism coming from the Alt Right. They pulled it off thank goodness,but some of those hesitant to denounce obvious and blatant racism have been on the bandwagon to just denounce homosexuality, instead. Many people who authored the Nashville declaration refused to respond to other issues such as adultery,divorce, IVF, abortion, and child sexual abuse. What happens when you become selective and subjective about naming sin is that people don’t trust you, they think it smacks of hypocrisy and politics.

    Believe it or not,I haven’t quite decided yet what I think of it. There are some pastors we’ve yet to hear from, and they will probably help to clarify what I am thinking.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. You post did strike me as a bit ambivalent.

      Something I try to remember, when Christians are arguing politics or whatnot, at the root of our disagreements is always, how best to love people. That is a truth that we often forget, but how astounding it is when you begin to see it. We take that for granted a lot in the West and tend to forget that what is natural to us as people is to fight over stuff, territory, status, power. Nobody ever fights over how best to love people,people who aren’t even “you.” That’s just crazy! Also,very Christian. 🙂

      That is a profound observation. You ought to do a post on it.

      Liked by 2 people

    2. “…at the root of our disagreements is always, how best to love people.”

      And loving people doesn’t necessarily mean giving them what they want.
      Ever had that really hard teacher you couldn’t stand at first? They made you work harder than you thought you could, and showed you you were capable of more than you believed you were. In the end, that’s the one you remember.

      And then, there was that teacher who just let you slide by. You learned nothing in their class and thought they were “cool” but look back and wonder why they didn’t teach you or challenge you. In fact, they did you an extreme disservice.

      That first one loved you best.

      Liked by 2 people

  3. “That is the crux of the problem.
    Those people don’t like the Christian church.
    They detest being reminded that what they do is a sin.
    Instead, they demand they we glorify their behavior as wholesome and loving,
    when it is not.”
    This my friend is the meat in the nutshell—that those who espouse to be or push for the sinful agendas of…transgenderism, homosexuality, abortions upon demand…etc, ad nauseam..
    detest being reminded that they are fallen and are living in the depths of sin.
    We are all fallen but many of us are trying to lose the old self while seeking to walk in fellowship with God….others are embracing their sin…and therein lies the rub of all our trouble….and best to silence those seeking fellowship as we only are sore reminders of sinful natures…..

    Liked by 3 people

    1. We are all fallen, but we each have to make a choice.

      People can be quite dangerous, especially those enslaved to sin. Look at how many people are ready to express their hatred and disdain for Donald Trump and his supporters. Where is that coming from? Instead looking at what is wrong with Trump and his supporters, some of those people need to examine the source of their anger. It is not Trump.

      Liked by 1 person

  4. I am still confused as to why it is confusing to people. Read the Bible it’s pretty cut and dry on what God thinks about homosexuality, HE IS THE ONE WHO SAYS THEY WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Being mad at the messenger who repeats this is displaced anger…go shake your fist in Gods face and tell Him he’S wrong in your eyes…not these mere men who wrote a secondary and completely fallible observatory piece based on what God originally wrote.

    This homosexual movement is the beginning to this convictionless gospel. The societal landscape is ripe for it. We live in a day and age where offending people is a sin in its eyes. As Billy Graham so beautifully said “the cross is offensive” .

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    1. Thanks for the comment.

      Why is this confusing to people? There are some people who don’t know what the Bible says. They just believe what they have been told. That doesn’t explain Mel or IB, however. I think it best to take them at face value.

      Others. I don’t know. Here is the best answer I have.

      Matthew 10:34-39New King James Version (NKJV)

      Christ Brings Division

      34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

      Apparently, even among those who identify themselves as Christians Jesus came to bring a sword. Even when we do our best, Jesus’ example is not easy for us to follow. So sometimes we will have honest disagreements among ourselves. Sometimes it will be otherwise.

      When the disagreements are honest, I think we will still love each other and strive to settle our differences. When they are not,… Well, both situations call for prayer, Bible study, and peacemaking. Sometimes we will just have to agree to disagree. Frankly, so long as we are united in trying to fulfill His Will, I don’t think our Savior gets upset just because we are still trying to figure out the best way to do what He wants us to do.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. I have two fears about the current Apostasy I see. One being a diluted gospel that stretches over into humanism – we are all good people God is love he doesn’t care what we do….or what I fear is coming – a rewritten politically correct non offensive translation that excludes anything that could be offensive.

        I mentioned John 6:66 “From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.”

        Jesus spoke the truth here. Many of his followers left him, rejected him. Did he chase them? No. Did he change his message to draw them back? No. His truth is His truth. And stressed that we don’t get in trouble by speaking the truth and people leaving…when get in trouble when we speak lies to make them stay. There is a reason the way is narrow to salvation and wide to damnation.

        In the parable of the seed Jesus speaks of 75% of the seed planted FAILS. We have to get it out of our mindset that God is in a popularity contest with the world and wants us to get fake follows and likes. He wants us to tell the True Gospel and let the Holy Spirit take care of the conviction, call to repentance, salvation and transformation. We just speak the truth.

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        1. @thewayonline

          I share your concerns, but there is a point we have to take things in stride. We are God’s Creations. We are part of His Plan. In Him we must put our faith.

          What percentage will be saved? Who will be saved? We don’t know. In spite of all the troubles we see today, tomorrow we might see the start of a world-wide revival. All we can do about that is pray and preach his Word as He told us to do.

          How did Jesus and His disciples preach the Gospel? With grace and truth. Sometimes we overdo the grace. Sometimes we overdo the truth. But the biggest mistake we can make is to not point people to Jesus. To let people know the Bible is His Word. He has given us the privilege of reading and studying the Bible. Anyone who does not devour the Word of God is being foolish.

          If we can encourage others to read and study the Bible, they too will see it is about Him. His grace. His truth. His mercy upon us. He is love. He is God, and we show our love for Him by obeying Him.

          Liked by 1 person

        2. This comment is beautiful…and oh so true. I think perhaps we all act from a fear of disappointing God, somehow doing something wrong, that would not get a soul won. Gods grace is a beautiful thing…and I guess we got to just step out on The Word…and have Faith that God can use us, despite our humanness getting in his way.

          Liked by 1 person

  5. Well, the USA Constitution and First Amendment give everyone the right of free speech to express their personal opinions. The Nashville Statement has expressed their opinion. Hollywood and the liberals have expressed their opinions, and the Supreme Court has expressed their opinions.

    As far as I am concerned, both sides have rights to express their opinions or choose not to say anything pro or con. Both sides in a Democracy will experience in their lives the consequences of their opinions in time.

    I have worked alongside with many people with lifestyles I do not agree with because of their sex preferences. I believe the subject of politics and religion should never be brought up at a dinner table. So it appears to me that the members of the Nashville Statement have given notice that they prefer not to invite certain people into their home for dinner. They may have to work alongside them, but they do not have to invite them into their home which seems to be the advice of Corinthians in the Bible.

    Because a person does not agree with something in a Democracy even though they may have to work alongside someone with a lifestyle they disagree with, it may be best to follow the advice of this proverb.

    Whoever derides their neighbor has no sense, but the one who has understanding holds their tongue. (Proverb 11:12)

    but a man of understanding holdeth his peace: and will not despise his neighbour, or give him ill language, because he is not so wise, or so rich, or so righteous as he; if he cannot speak any good of him, he will not speak evil of him; or he holds his peace, is silent, and will not answer the man void of wisdom, that despises and reproaches him; he will not render railing for railing; when he is reviled he will revile not again; and by so doing he shows himself to he a man understanding, or of intellects; a wise and prudent.(Gils Commentary)

    The Nashville Statement signers are Religious leaders. They have expressed their opinions because they believe they have an obligation. otherwise they would be hypocrisy of their faith. It is their opinion and their right as religious leaders.

    As for judging which personal opinion God will judge, I prefer to believe this ancient King Solomon proverb.

    Every man’s way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts.(Proverb 21:2)

    Regards and goodwill blogging.

    Like

    1. Not sure what to make of your comment, but I do know that both politicians and the clergy have their share of troubles staying slim.
      😀

      Since we both operate political/religious blogs, neither of us, of course, are in a good position to criticize the the signers of the Nashville Statement just for taking a position on a political/religious topic. Yet it seems as if you are itching to do that, but you realize it makes no sense. Are you are caught on the horns of a dilemma of some sort?

      What about Proverbs 11:12? Since I have a big mouth I am afraid I have learned the meaning of Proverb 11:12 too well. On too many occasions I have stated my opinion when it was not welcomed and would do no good. When we give someone advice, especially advice contrary to their preferences, there is no point in giving it unless the person we give our advice wants it. Even if our intentions are good, the target of our advice will probably feel we have tried to shame them.

      Still, as Christians we are required to preach the Gospel, and that includes teaching the wisdom of the Bible, and some people find the very fact we do that offensive. Why? Well, let consider what it means to have wisdom. Do I have to define the meaning of wisdom for you? Of course not! Still, each of us provides a mirror for the other, and wisdom is hard for us.

      In the Biblical sense, wisdom is the “ability to judge correctly and to follow the best course of action, based on knowledge and understanding” (Lockyer p. 1103). The Wisdom teachings of the Bible follow from the two great themes of the Ten Commandments and the Greatest Commandments of Jesus : reverence to God, our Creator, and respect for all persons, everywhere. (from => http://www.christianbiblereference.org/introduc.htm)

      Why does the Bible spend much time telling us what is good and what is evil? It is so we will be able to judge correctly and follow the best course of action. Therefore, because the Bible teaches us to distinguish between good and evil, the very fact we preach the Gospel is offensive to some people. Don’t we all tend to personalize what we hear. When someone speaks of sin — our sin — as vile and evil, don’t we all tend to take that personally?

      Because our society, even our churches, have divided over the issue of sexual immorality, church leaders have the responsibility to state the Bible’s teaching clearly. Will some take offense, equate this statement of what the Bible says with derision? Yes, but…..

      Mark 8:34-38 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

      34 And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 35 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36 For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? 37 For what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

      We must keep scattering wisdom. It won’t make everyone happy, but at least our Lord will not be ashamed of us.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Personally, since we Christians live in a Democracy, we must obey the law even if we do not agree with it.

        However, as Christians, “we must discriminate against sin, not people.”

        Check out these fallacies about Christians. I subscribe to this belief regarding homosexuality. (No. 3)

        https://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/chrisnot.htm

        The challenge of how to be a Christian in a Democracy is a personal choice now that the Supreme Court has decided it is law. How to address the subject as a sin is no longer a simple task.

        Since I have no choice anymore because of how the law applies to my workplace. However, I do have choice who to invite into my home.

        I am not going to lose sleep about this subject that I do not have any control over in the workplace. I do not think my boss would appreciate my disrupting unity in his company by voicing my personal opinion either about homosexuality that our Democracy Laws have decided as lawful.

        My personal mantra now is if a person is over 18 and chooses homosexuality, and they do not break the law to influence a minor, let it be. In time, who knows, they may change.

        Who am I to judge someone when there may be some reason I do not understand about their sexual preferences. There is still disagreement by phycologists of all religious faiths as to whether homosexuality is nature or nurture. I personally believe it may be both and minors need to understand that it could be nurture rather than nature.

        As to whether or not it is a sin, is a matter of personal faith. We may choose to express our personal opinions, our First Amendment gives us that right.

        Most important is that when a wise man he speaks, he must choose his words carefully.”

        Whether it is wise or foolish to express our personal opinions, it is also our personal choice. If the Nashville community decides it is a sin according to their personal religious beliefs or faith, that is their choice.

        The USA is a Democracy, not like Saudi Arabia, thank God.

        Saudi Arabia is not an electoral democracy. The 1992 Basic Law declares that the Koran and the Sunna (the guidance set by the deeds and sayings of the prophet Muhammad) are the country’s constitution. The cabinet, which is appointed by the king, passes legislation that becomes law once ratified by royal decree.

        We Christians must use wisdom and love and words that will not shame a person, only his sins.

        Regards and goodwill blogging.

        Regards and goodwill blogging.

        Liked by 1 person

        1. @scatterwisdom

          The mass media has been preaching that homosexuality is not a sin since I was a boy in the 60’s. In recent years even public school system has taken up the cause. Meanwhile, the free love advocates have expanded the notion of what is an appropriate relationship so that LGBTQ is just the beginning. Their latest thing is cheering on parents who choose to transgender children, and we are supposed to be 100 percent understanding and approving, or else.

          As I expect you already know, Romans 1:18-32 provides the rationale for your position on homosexuality. What does not come across in your comment, however, does come across in Romans 1:18-32. These people border on insane.

          We don’t have any choice except to oppose the designs of the “free love” lunatics. Neutrality not an option they have given us. Unless we resist them, they will insist that we become complicit in their sins.

          Liked by 1 person

        2. You stated…….
          “We don’t have any choice except to oppose the designs of the “free love” lunatics. Neutrality not an option they have given us. Unless we resist them, they will insist that we become complicit in their sins.”

          I say…..
          They do not value our religious beliefs. Many have never had any religion taught them in their lives. In other words, anything we say using religion as a remise will not be heard or listened.

          If we want to oppose their “free love” practices we have to use a different vehicle than religion or Bible.

          What could be used instead is citizens living in a Democracy and who pay taxes, to pass a law not to allow tax funds be used to pay medical costs for people that choose by their own volition to engage in risky sexual practices that may require medical attention to be paid by the government.

          If they want to buy insurance policies, so be it.

          We already have a law to forbid government funds to pay for abortion.

          The average cost for medication for HIV is $500,000 in their lifetime which will be shortened by up to 20 years.

          In other words, if they want to play, they will have to pay.

          Who will be a leader to propose limiting government spending in a nation already 20 trillion in debt?

          Whoever he or she may be will need constant bodyguards to prevent them from being crucified, in my opinion..

          Regards and goodwill blogging.

          Like

      2. Perhaps instead of relating sin to homosexuality, and because of past Christian beliefs about science have later proven to be in error, we use common sense logic.
        For example, just present an argument for a person living in a Democracy to make his own choice about homosexuality as to whether it is a good healthy, or bad or poor choice, to make in their lives with these two questions.
        1. Is it possible to contract HIV/AIDs or an host of other STD diseases by engaging in Homosexual engagement?
        If ir is, then it must be a bad choice in life.
        2. Is it possible for two non homasexual virgin male and females to contract a STD?
        If it is not, then it must be a good choice to make in life.
        In other words, do not use religious terms of sin or evil which are faith based terms in a nation of people who choose not to believe in in religious faith, and prefer human wisdom to Spiritual wisdom in our Democratic Nation of freedom of choice.
        Regards and goodwill blogging.

        Perhaps instead of relating sin to homosexuality, and because of past Christian beliefs about science have later proven to be in error, we use common sense logic.
        For example, just present an argument for a person living in a Democracy to make his own choice about homosexuality as to whether it is a good healthy, or bad or poor choice, to make in their lives with these two questions.
        1. Is it possible to contract HIV/AIDs or an host of other STD diseases by engaging in Homosexual engagement?
        If ir is, then it must be a bad choice in life.
        2. Is it possible for two non homasexual virgin male and females to contract a STD?
        If it is not, then it must be a good choice to make in life.
        In other words, do not use religious terms of sin or evil which are faith based terms in a nation of people who choose not to believe in in religious faith, and prefer human wisdom to Spiritual wisdom in our Democratic Nation of freedom of choice.
        Regards and goodwill blogging.

        .

        Perhaps instead of relating sin to homosexuality, and because of past Christian beliefs about science have later proven to be in error, we use common sense logic.

        For example, just present an argument for a person living in a Democracy to make his own choice about homosexuality as to whether it is a good healthy, or bad or poor choice, to make in their lives with these two questions.

        1. Is it possible to contract HIV/AIDs or an host of other STD diseases by engaging in Homosexual engagement?

        If ir is, then it must be a bad choice in life.

        2. Is it possible for two non homasexual virgin male and females to contract a STD?
        If it is not, then it must be a good choice to make in life.

        In other words, do not use religious terms of sin or evil which are faith based terms in a nation of people who choose not to believe in in religious faith, and prefer human wisdom to Spiritual wisdom in our Democratic Nation of freedom of choice.

        Probably wont convince everyone, but it might persuade a young adult?

        Regards and goodwill blogging.

        .

        .

        Like

        1. @scatterwisdom

          You make good points, but what makes homosexuality a sin is a bit more serious than disease concerns.

          Consider. Past Christian beliefs about science have later proven to be in error? Well, the Bible has not been found in error, but human beings, whether Christian or not, are easily confused. What did our ancestors think of sexual diseases? I suspect that depended largely upon cultural beliefs. Science had little to do with it.

          Even today, scientists — at least what the news media says scientists believe — tend to modify their scientific beliefs about the health effects or various foods with amazing frequency. Some the diets people put themselves on are amazingly stupid, but “scientific” just the same.

          There is not much doubt that homosexuality is unhealthy. However, the main reason for that, aside from the anatomical issues (How could anyone not realize that sodomy has health issues?), is that homosexuals tend to have large numbers of partners.

          When a man and woman become husband and wife, form a bond, and honor that bond, the two become one. Does anything like that happen with homosexuals? I suppose it is possible, but I think it must be rare. It actually is not easy for a man and woman to form a solid relationship, and this is the relationship we were created for. Nevertheless, some guys and gals focus on the sex, not the relationship. They make a toy of their partners. When that happens our minds and bodies get mixed up. We are designed to expect fidelity from the person we sleep with. When there is none, we soon….. Well, here is what Paul wrote.

          1 Corinthians 6:12-20 New King James Version (NKJV)

          Glorify God in Body and Spirit

          12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.

          15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

          18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

          When we learn how to have a close relationship with another human being, we learn something about how to have a close relationship with God. Fornication is not about forming a relationship; it is about using someone. God doesn’t do that, and He won’t let us do it to Him.

          Liked by 1 person

        2. see my earlier reply for my opinion on how to curtail “free love” in a Democracy making use of the almighty dollar rather than religion values which are not valued by believers of “free love.”

          “There is no such thing as a free lunch.”

          Regards and goodwill blogging.

          Like

        3. @scatterwisdom

          There is no such thing as a free lunch.” True, but our nation is still in debt up to its ears. The people who realize they are paying the bill may believe you, but the people who think someone else is paying their bills don’t.

          Why does tyranny exist? Because the tyrannical class thinks it is okay for someone else to pay for their lunch. Why does the tyrannical class think it is okay? They have developed an ideology that excuses their tyranny.

          What is happening in the United States and Western Europe? Instead of being taught about the Bible, successive generations have learned ideologies that expound upon the glories of sex, stuff, state and self. Instead of parents taking charge of the education of their children, parents have handed the job to politicians and bureaucrats. Instead of believing in Jesus Christ, too many now idolize sex, stuff, state, and self. The only way to change that is to provide a better alternative, a better ideology.

          To save a society, we have to save the souls of the people. Glorified sex, lots of stuff, a powerful state, and a highly esteemed self may make this life seem better, but almost everyone eventually realizes the idolization of sex, stuff, state, and self is a vain pursuit. Only Jesus saves souls.

          Since the souls of people are more important than the state of our society, saving souls must be our priority. But just as Christians found it difficult to persuade 1st Century pagans, we find it difficult to persuade 21st Century pagans.

          Liked by 1 person

        4. “But just as Christians found it difficult to persuade 1st Century pagans, we find it difficult to persuade 21st Century pagans.”

          Interesting thought, May well need a miracle awakening or a catastrophe to accomplish. I have been reading lots of news about catastrophes in the USA and around the world lately, more so than miracles.

          Time to pray for miracles on how to teach children not to become pagans. We lost more than two generations by making private religious schooling no longer affordable for their parents, in my opinion.

          Regards and goodwill blogging.

          Liked by 1 person

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