PRINCIPLES OF NATURAL LAW: ‘Borderless’ or ‘Open Society’ = Lawless Or Tyranny

This post makes the point that when we are talking about a right to immigrate we are trying to redefine the definition of national sovereignty into something unworkable. Similarly, the article at this link (=> http://www.str.org/articles/we-re-arguing-definitions-not-rights#.V8eSozUW6eE) argues that the debate over same-sex “marriage” is not about rights. It is about an unworkable definition of marriage.

THE ROAD TO CONCORD

There is a growing movement in America to have a, ‘open’ or ‘borderless’ society.  This is lawlessness.  If we take the time to actually look at the definitions for the words being used and apply a little basic logic, this is easy to prove.  If you have a moment, I’d like to show you how.

First, by definition, a nationmust have a border.  If it does not have a border, then it is not and cannot be a nation.

Now, the natural response to this is that one definition of ‘nation’ refers to a people, and not a specific piece of land.  OK, but does that definition actually work in reality, or has it been accepted by people seeking to push a hidden agenda?  Let us look to see.  Look in the world and show me the ‘nation’ of Hitites.  Or the ‘nation’ of Assyrians. Or the ‘nation’ of…

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39 thoughts on “PRINCIPLES OF NATURAL LAW: ‘Borderless’ or ‘Open Society’ = Lawless Or Tyranny

  1. Tom, you wrote to me this question:

    “What identity group do you belong to?”

    Well Tom, that’s easy. I’m your brother, but more import to this discussion, I’m your “neighbor”. Every time you hear Mr. Trump (or anyone else) say “those people” or some other label that splits them into some separate group, just substitute the words “our neighbors”, or even better “our brothers and sisters”, and see if the statement still makes moral sense.

    The practicalities will still remain. Some of our neighbor’s needs will still be greater than others. Our resources to help our neighbors will still be limited. The most efficient and effective nongovernmental solutions should still come first and foremost and may often be all that is needed for many neighbors. Governmental solutions will still often be involved and often will still be the exclusive avenue, particularly when it comes to immigration and humanitarian intervention. We will still need to balance moral security concerns against moral humanitarian concerns (and the two are not mutually exclusive, but often go hand in hand). There will still be complex strategic military and geopolitical American and international goals to be weighed against narrow short term interests. We will still need to work with our allies. And how we spend scarce economic resources toward the greatest economic benefit will still be the subject of much debate and disagreement by experts from the dismal science on both sides.

    However, in Christ, there are no borders, there are no other races, there are no other languages, there are no other ethnicities, there are no other religions, and there are not even any other real nationalities. There are just neighbors. As you have rightly said, you are a Christian first, and I agree with that sentiment, which makes us neighbors to all other peoples first before all else.

    And as neighbors to all peoples, the moral goods of virtue and mutual dependency with our neighbors are always valued above material goods. If we just name these refugees and immigrants our “neighbors” and choose to look with compassion on our mutual humanity rather than our superficial differences, then the rest is just practical considerations that we can still fight about. But we will be deliberating as neighbors about our neighbors, not some other identity group. And I believe that makes a big difference in what we can agree to do and not to do, and how we might compromise on competing practicalities, don’t you think?

    So here’s some questions to you on your 12 point plan, some of which I could agree with (and as Scout points out, many of which has been happening for some time), what if it were your neighbor, your friend, your brother or your sister, your daughter or your son, that each of those steps that you recommend were actually being apllied to and about? Would you still feel the same way? Would you still go about applying them in the same way? Are they each (especially the “build a wall” idea) really the most cost effective and practical way to achieve what you want to do for people who you actually love as you love yourself?

    If we had the multiple area expertise and knowledge (which I sure as hell don’t), we might agree or disagree on parts of your 12 point plan, but at least we would be working from a common Christian moral framework to find virtuous and practical solutions and compromises to these extremely complex problems.

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    1. @Tony

      I am suppose to love God with all the that I have. God is perfectly holy.

      I am suppose to love my neighbor as I love myself. My neighbor is not holy. He is just a jerk like me.

      We have loyalties. Those loyalties mean we owe some people more than we owe others. So I take care of my lady before I take care of anyone else. Next come my children, their families, my brothers and sisters…. Lots of other people come before some neighbor in a faraway land.

      Would I do what the Good Samaritan did? If I ran into a stranger who needed my help, and I could not avoid seeing his distress, would I go out of my way to help him? I like to think I would, but if one of my family members needed me, that stranger would die if he needed my help.

      Every nation needs to enforce its borders. Otherwise, it risks its cultural identity. Do you understand the value of our nation’s cultural identity? Have you been properly informed of this nation’s cultural heritage? No, and I wasn’t either. We have been fed the crap taught in our public school system. So many don’t care if the immigrants ever assimilate. They think if we just love them and put them on welfare everything will be hunkydory, but when has that ever worked?

      How did I realize that I had been fed a bunch of crap? One day I decided I had to read the Bible. Too many things did not make sense. After I read the Bible, I did not know everything, but I knew I had to learn more about Jesus.

      Since then I have been studying the Bible. I have also been reading historic books instead of history books.You can filter out a great deal of nonsense and learn a lot about what actually happened by reading what amounts to primary source literature.

      Like

  2. In response to your last to me Tom, Immigration policy IS federal government policy. Whether that policy is to open the flood gates and grant amnesty, or instead to build some hugely expensive giant wall down the (middle? our side? their side?) of the Reo Grande and over a thousand miles of rugged border and then set up a jackbooted deportation force to round up 11 or 12 million illegal families and send them on some sort of modern trail of tears south, either way, it has to be paid for by taxpayers and OUR federal government has to do it.

    You expect the President to somehow solve the structural issues that are causing refugee problems in other countries, but wouldn’t that call for us to send taxpayer resources and/or the American people’s kids and grandkids to fight in these other countries?

    How easy do you think it really is it to solve the problems in other countries that cause refugees immigrants? What is your grand tax and resource free solution? I know, an unworkable, multi-billion dollar wall that an impoverished and corrupt country who does not want it is supposed to somehow pay for just exactly how? Even if that could actually happen, how would it not be robbing their poor Peter to pay our rich Paul? Trump’s magic plan is not a viable solution – it’s only an incitement to rally bigotry and hatred.

    Much of your criticism about doing this individually ourselves is true. And that is why so many Christians and Christian churches have decided to walk the walk of Jesus and work on the forefront of helping and sponsoring immigrants and refugees to this country. Yes, part of any solution to a flood of refugees and immigrants has to also to attempt to stop the problems that are causing refugees at the source, but the problem of hate and selfishness in the world is somewhat intractable and solutions are slow and incremental at best. All administrations, Republican and Democrat, have faced these problems. You are irrationally tripwired to condemn the Democrats, but as far as I can tell, neither side has actually fixed the immigration problem, much less fixed the world.

    What are your practical and moral policy solutions for stopping the flow of drugs that we Americans are the ones actually buying and that are corrupting these countries and their institutions of government? What do we morally do with 11 to 12 million families that live in our country, clean our toilets, work in our chicken processing plants, take care of our yards and pick our food in back breaking labor? Even to ignore them without granting them legal status (as Trump is now suddenly “softening” toward) is to do something – it is to leave them undocumented and therefore unprotected. People without status are natual victims.

    What do you propose doing with millions of refugee families who have flooded into Europe and who are stuck in terrible camps in Turkey and Jordan? If the Middle East and Europe turn into an all out conflagration that we quite arguably sparked when we destabilized the region by invading Iraq, do you really think that we can just build a wall around ourselves high and wide enough to where it won’t reach us, to where we won’t hear the screams and see the tears of the innocents on our 24 hour news networks? And once we are undoubtedly involved, how much taxpayer resources will be needed then, and how many of our young men and women will we sacrifice in killing and dying then rather than using those taxpayer resources for healing and help now?

    We are the largest trading country in the world by far, and our economy and the economy of our allies and trading partners (including Mexico) depends upon a certain free flow of goods, people and services. How would our “extreme” isolationism effect us, world’s largest economy, and how will it effect the world economy if we lock ourselves behind some new Trump curtain? It can’t be in a good way.

    I am with you on being practical Tom, but this IS, by constitutional definition, a federal issue. So the question is not whether it is a matter of federal responsibility whether federal resources will be used and spent. The question is how those resources will be most practically and morally utilized to solve these problems rather than exacerbate even them further. I almost wish Trump would be elected so that you would see that none of his con job will come true, but it is not worth the satisfaction of an “I told you so” if we have to watch Trump destroy the country.

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  3. @novascout

    You did not use the word “amnesty”. Nevertheless, that is why the bill did not pass.

    When we had the bailout, what was the excuse? “Too big to fail.” Now its “too many to deport”. So we are suppose to give illegal immigrants amnesty so our government has yet another excuse to collect a tax?
    🙄

    How do we solve a big problem? Well, it helps not to be foolish enough to put ourselves in a mess, but we have been foolish. So now what?

    We solve a big problem by splitting it into smaller ones. This is just off the top of my head. So I expect I will forget something. Sorry, but I still have to listen to Trump’s latest speech on immigration to get my mind-numbed robot marching orders.
    😉

    1. Build the wall and verify it stops illegals from crossing.
    2. Stop giving folks from nations where terrorists are operating in significant numbers the right to come here without a good security check. No immigration. Just trade and diplomatic visits.
    3. Hire the people we need to enforce the border and run down the people who are violating their visas.
    4. Require employers to verify citizenship.
    5. Negotiate agreements with other nations that allow us to send their illegal immigrants back home.
    6. Develop a reliable system with straightforward criteria that allows us to identify people. This is not complicated. We have been doing fingerprints for years, but identity theft is rampant.
    7. Cut the benefits of illegal immigrants: health, education, and welfare. Why is our government giving money to people who are not suppose to be here? That is absurd.
    8. Cut Federal Funds to sanctuary cities, counties, states, and whatever.
    9. Track down illegal immigrant criminals and such. Try them, jail them and then send them home.

    After we establish the first nine conditions are in place, we do 10, 11, and 12.
    10. Update our immigration laws to encourage the immigration and assimilation of talented people.
    11. Establish clear criteria for those illegal immigrants who must stay in this country (not safe to go back or this is the only home they have ever known) to gain citizenship.
    12. Round up the illegal immigrants who refused to go back to their home country.

    Since we will fight over this like cats and dogs, those first nine steps will be implemented slowly. To some extent, that is a good thing. If we can actually break the illegal immigration amnesty lobby, then the illegal immigrants will see what is coming (unemployment and benefits cutoff) and slowly self deport. Once that starts we can implement steps 10 and 11 and make arrangements to keep the people we want to stay. Step 12 would be the last step. Because it will be an ugly scene, no one wants to round up a bunch of people who have been in this country for years. That’s why steps 1 – 11 have to come first.

    How else can step 12 be made easier? We can punish people for not exiting on their own. If step 12 features several months of collecting trash by the roadside, most people will self deport first.

    What should matter is what good for the country, not the Democratic Party. Currently, we have our priorities backwards.

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    1. There’s a bit of overlap in your 12-point program and things that are either already being done or that can be done pursuant to the Senate Bill or something like it, Tom. I take that as a hopeful sign. Six of your points are already in place, although we can always refine how we do things and appropriate funds for doing them better (Congress seems very reluctant to undertake even the most basic measures to improve the economy or strengthen national security, but that’s another story). The Wall (your point 1) is an idiotic idea, will cost us (not Mexico) gazillions of dollars, and, if it has any advantages at all they are the New Deal-type, WPA advantages of putting a lot of people to work for a decade on a government project. Normally, I wouldn’t expect you to be a fan of such projects. No serious person believes that such a public works project can, will or needs to be built.

      Again, Amnesty has never been a serious proposal for immigration reform. No one is advocating it. It’s just a label without meaning.

      Scout

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      1. @novascout

        Ever heard of the Great Wall of China? I tend to think we can build something that costs far less. Why did Trump have to insist upon Mexico paying for it? People are stupid.

        The way people advocate amnesty is simple enough. Read Tony’s comment => https://citizentom.com/2016/08/31/principles-of-natural-law-borderless-or-open-society-lawless-or-tyranny/#comment-70673).

        If there is no way to get anyone to leave our country, we effectively have amnesty. Even your idea, a fine, amounts to the same thing.

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        1. RE your last sentence, Tom, we have ways to get people to leave the country. We use them in vast numbers every year. It’s called deportation. We deport at a record clip in this administration. It doesn’t seem to give us any difficulty whatsoever. Of course, it would be madness to try to deport everyone who either entered illegally or who overstayed a visa. Many of these people are quite productive. If we could wave a magic want and make them disappear, it would have terrible consequences for the economy, and the moral and ethical recriminations would undermine our national security for generations. So that’s why the idea of mass expulsions doesn’t have any currency in informed circles.

          As for your gloss on the word “amnesty” I guess it’s a matter of arbitrary definitions. If you define “amnesty” as any policy that doesn’t include expulsion of all immigrants and children who entered without going through the required legal procedures, then your “amnesty” will be a fairly broad term, not very useful as a descriptor, given that no one who has studied this issue to any extent thinks it makes sense to expel everyone who entered illegally. We could probably form a political consensus that those who commit crimes here should go, at least if these are serious crimes that show us that the perpetrator is dangerous. (A fine point in this discussion is that you seem to think they should be rewarded with deportation, whereas a lot of us think that the should serve their sentences here and then be deported). We probably also could find political consensus around the idea that devising processes that encourage lawful entry and discourage illegal entry are a good thing (any farmer or rancher knows that well-maintained, easy to use, well located gates make fences far more effective and more durable. But the overall approach to modernizing immigration policies in ways that promoted the economic and security interests of the United States will involve a mix of things (including some of your 12 points – half of which are already in place in some degree). Increased security, regularization of non-criminal immigrants already here, better identification and record-keeping, streamlined entrance requirements etc.

          I agree with you that Trump is appealing to ignorance on the part of the voters with the Mexico-pays schtick. I prefer not to use your term, “stupid”, but there may indeed be a subset within the ignorant who simply don’t have the mental skills to evaluate the fantastical, manipulative nature of that particular electioneering gambit by this very strange character who has somehow infiltrated the Republican Party. But Trump himself is not stupid, and he, like Limbaugh and a lot of others in his camp know that they are cynically playing on vulnerable minds with that kind of talk.

          As to your link to Tony, I see nothing there that deviates from standard Christian doctrine as applied to these very serious and complex immigration issues. He seems very sincere and thoughtful. I also saw nothing particularly “ad hominem” in his comment, certainly nothing as “ad hominem” than your reference to administration policy and the “liar in the White House”, and many of your personal attacks and name-calling that you frequently fall prey to. I don’t agree with everything he says, and I’m sure he has some reservations about my views from time to time, but Tony strikes me as a polite citizen who takes the time to give the issues of the day careful thought. In his particular case, he also seems to approach secular issues from a very deep religious foundation.

          Scout

          Like

          1. @novascout

            A magic want. I guess that would be better than a magic wand.
            😆

            The Obama administration is notorious for lying with statistics. So please don’t bother citing them. That crowd uses a magic want on their numbers.

            So that’s why the idea of mass expulsions doesn’t have any currency in informed circles.

            Do informed circles consist of people who praise themselves?

            When people set impossible conditions for enforcing the border, I call that amnesty. Nothing complicated about it.

            The Obama administration is not enforcing the border. That outfit is just going through the motions. That’s why tens of thousands of children have been crossing it.

            Willfully ignorant and stupid are pretty much the same thing in practice. We just have some hope that the willfully ignorant will eventually learn that ignorance is not bliss. I still have hope for you.
            😉

            Have no idea why you had to attack Limbaugh too.

            Have no interest in attacking Tony personally. The point is what I have already said. When people set impossible conditions for enforcing the border, I call that amnesty. Nothing complicated about it.

            What our glorious leaders keep trying to do is write a complex bill that weakens already weak immigration laws. Then they won’t bother to enforce what remains. That’s what we saw in 1986. No point in doing than again. It is that fool me twice thing.

            So what people want is a demonstration that their government can and will enforce our immigration laws. Then we can talk about rendering mercy to people who broke the law.

            I feel sorry for the children. The adults who knowingly took the risk? No.

            And who is to blame for this shameful mess? All of us, but our lying, devious leaders most of all. It is unfortunate we elected them. It is even more unfortunate we keep doing so.

            Like

  4. Way to engage substantively on the real issues, Tom. With which of my “lots of words” are you taking issue?

    Is your position that we should remove people (not “tens of millions”, but around 10 million) who entered without inspection? Each of the past three administrations has been more aggressive than the one before about enforcing immigration laws. Does the fact that we have as much uninspected entry as we have (declining over that which we had years ago, but still not insubstantial) possibly suggest that current laws need revision? What is your position on children of uninspected entrants who are US citizens?

    “Amnesty” is a bugaboo word. All recent proposals for addressing this issue have included payment of fines. It’s not like “amnesty” where you return your overdue library book and no one asks questions.

    Scout

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