The content of the post “Yep” at Truth in Palmyra.

Like most such posts, “Yep” generated comments more interesting than the post itself, and it is certainly worth perusing.  However, because it is important, I am going focus upon something that wasn’t said.

Here goes!

john zande got the discussion going with this comment.

Aliens, though, don’t break any natural laws. So, why is it unreasonable to believe aliens could exist? (from here)

I replied.

Why is it easier to assume miraculous technology exists than it is to believe in God?

When we speak of traveling light-years through interstellar space, we are talking about technology way beyond what we can achieve. We can only speculate how we might go to nearby stars, and that is about it.

With the passage of time, will our technology advance? I suppose so, but it is like the stock market. Pass performance does not necessarily predict future results.

I say this after having worked as a military officer doing launch calculations for the Space Shuttle. No, I don’t really consider myself a rocket scientist, but I did have to gain an appreciation of what is currently possible.

The headache with science and engineering is that usually only a few people have a good grasp of how things work with in any particular area of technology. Do even some of these people have the intellectual prowess to put together an interstellar spacecraft? Is it possible? What would be required to build it? Does any life form with the capability to build such a contraption even exist? We haven’t a clue. (from here)

Zande replied with these two comments.

“Why is it easier to assume miraculous technology exists than it is to believe in God?

Because technology exists, and our technology today would appear somewhat “miraculous” to people just 70 years ago. That’s not to say they couldn’t understand it. They could, because it doesn’t break any natural laws. It’s reasonable and would simply require some explanation as to the engineering. Such an explanation would not contain the word, “magic,” nor require a creative excuse.

Is that particularly difficult for you to understand? (from here)

*…nor require a creative excuse that demands “faith”, which is belief without evidence. (from here)

Is Zande really interested in proof that God exists or that He created us? That seems doubtful. Think about his emphasis on obedience to natural laws. He speaks of this, the fact that the existence of aliens would not break any natural laws, four times in the post. Yet there is something innately absurd in this point. Because He is the Creator, God makes those natural laws. That is, God established what we call natural laws. When we model the relationships between various causes and effects, God is responsible for both the existence and behavior of what we model.

Consider how Jesus proved He is God. Didn’t He perform miracles? Didn’t He control the weather, turn water into wine, and heal untold numbers of people? Didn’t He bring the dead back to life? Didn’t He bring Himself back to life after His death upon a cross? Are we suppose to ignore all that just because Jesus broke “natural laws,” or should we observe the obvious? Jesus must be God. His creation does whatever He wants it to do.

Psalm 8 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Glory of the Lord in Creation

To the Chief Musician. On the instrument of Gath. A Psalm of David.

O Lord, our Lord,
How excellent is Your name in all the earth,
Who have set Your glory above the heavens!

Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have ordained strength,
Because of Your enemies,
That You may silence the enemy and the avenger.

When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained,
What is man that You are mindful of him,
And the son of man that You visit him?
For You have made him a little lower than the angels,
And You have crowned him with glory and honor.

You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,
All sheep and oxen—
Even the beasts of the field,
The birds of the air,
And the fish of the sea
That pass through the paths of the seas.

O Lord, our Lord,
How excellent is Your name in all the earth!

Yes, God made us master of this little place we call Earth. Is that sufficient cause to get big heads? To prove He exists, must God now conform to our rules of evidence?

For those who are willing to look, there is evidence God exists, but we can only find Him in humility.  We have to look at His Creation and be awed. Instead of demanding that the universe obey the laws He enforces — that we only discovered — we must admit the universe does whatever God  demands. He is its Creator. And because His Creation does obey Him, that is how we know God is God. That is how He once chose to reveal Himself to us as Christ Jesus.

14 thoughts on “HOW DOES GOD PROVE HE IS GOD?

  1. Good post Tom as was Wally’s “Yep” you linked to. Took a glance at the comments which started out very interesting but then devolved in to a sort of Beavis and Butthead congratulatory back slapping after the adults left the room. Weird. Any way one smart commenter there mentioned that the reason people will believe almost anything except God is the accountability factor which I believe is very true. Putting your faith in aliens requires nothing in return of you while putting it in Christ requires everything.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. The weird part is too easily understood and becoming much too commonplace. When we want to believe something, we can be childish. If the facts don’t support us, we can always resort to ridicule.

      Liked by 1 person

  2. Also, note that John with all of his blogs and books doesn’t take the time to refute major scholars like Augustine and Thomas Aquinas (the only mention on his for Clockmaker theory). When looking at authors one of the first things is to examine, where are there silences? He attempts to refute us on the internet; however, how does he refute the classic Christian philosophers? The most glaring silence is Augustine. However, go to his page and type in names like Augustine, Aquinas, Chesteron, Berdyaev or C.S. Lewis for that matter in the search bar and see what the results are brought to you. The answer is no results, except that brief mention of Aquinas.

    Perhaps, let’s search for the new scholarship on the creation of the Christmas festival that debunks its connection with paganism that he so often touts. Let’s search for Susan Roll’s name, nothing. How about Oxford’s C. Philipp Nothaft who has the most damaging thesis to John’s views. Nothing.

    There’s a reason because his assertions is based on circular reasoning. He can quantify a position of originality without theological argument to argue against the trinity. However, the asking one to explain t he concept of the trinity without logical explanation would be absurd. He knows it. This is why he attempts to create rules in any debate.

    Of course, using my classical background to maneuver around his set up and lack of integrity, he simply replied, I hope you can sleep at night.

    However, we must pray for John, like Augustine attempted to seek the truth within every philosophy, Augustine had to let the truth find him to enter his heart. Perhaps one day, John will let it enter his own.

    The reason why there are those who do not know us or understand us is because they do not know Him.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Of course, using my classical background to maneuver around his set up and lack of integrity, he simply replied, I hope you can sleep at night.

      That is John Zande. Corner him in a debate, and that is what you get.

      It is a shame. He is not a stupid man, just foolish.


      1. John went on about how Moses wasn’t a historical figure; however, I’ve asked several History professors since that time and they all said those who profess such a thing is based on weak scholarship. One of the Professors gave a half chuckle and said strange that Moses had an Egyptian name if he was made up by Hebrews.

        I also remember taking the position that the trinity was original to Christianity, which, of course, ole’ John here attempted to dismiss it with the Hindu Trimurti. I explained the concepts were very different from one another, the comparison would be a false equivalence. In fact, four realities are actually present in the Hindu Gods, so the number three is actually even shaky.

        So I replied, “Datur Tertium” As John Zande said I could only accept his answer… “what the?” I refuted theTrinity had no connection, John couldn’t accept this and resorted to Circular reasoning. John spammed commented me for an entire day or two, which I only replied “Datur Tertium” Prompting, the reply from him “I hope you can sleep at night.”

        I have done a bit of research looking at scholarly journals on JSTOR and so far no serious scholar, or any scholar who publishes on JSTOR, takes John’s position.

        Overall, this would leave me to believe that John’s motive on the internet is to try to embarrass folks with faulty logic, give virtual high fives with his fellow atheist, and convince those who would be convinced by circular reasoning.

        Overall, I realized that since I refuted his position on the Trinity and he applied fallacious reasoning to counter it his goal was simply to be right.

        John’s philosophy, it appears, in many ways is the same as any Promethean philosophy that attempts to make humans gods. I would surmise that John undertakes his mission to feels superior–godlike.

        The atheist has to constantly position themselves in this way in order to assume the role they so actively seek to destroy, in this regard the atheist has more in common with Trimurti than the Christian trinity.

        Liked by 1 person

  3. Keith would disagree with me, if he was well, no doubt. I hope he gets better, but I’ll acknowledge his disagreement out of respect.

    I’ve had a few exchanges with John, the problem with his adherence to natural law is that usually attempted to manipulate debate with a constant flare for fallacy and the constant need to remeasure his question to produce an extraordinary circular argument.

    In the end, how can he do this? Well, it’s simple, his belief in “natural law” and “natural rights” comes from a metaphysical belief system. In this regard, he must always articulate his point of view in the offensive rather than the defensive of an apologist. It would be no doubt that his concept of where “rights” originate is far more absurd than any theist.

    If John is right about religion, the only place that he (and we) operates in is the state of nature, which of course means, there are NO rules only who has power and who can survive.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Well said, Tom.

    I got a real chuckle out of this meme, because I live in a world full of every possible new age pursuit, crystals, pagans, and alien pod people. There are people having horns surgically implanted in their heads, grommets placed in their ears, and some who dance naked in the moonlight. A while back I had a pleasant conversation with a man in a loin cloth with a bone through his nose, but when we got to the part about how I was a Christian, he recoiled, declared me weird, and ended our chat.

    All that chaos, all that searching for something, however odd, just reinforces the fact that God is real, because people seem to have a God sized hole within them, that is born seeking it’s source. People may come up with all kinds of crazy things to pour into that abyss, but the very fact that that abyss is there speaks to the existence of God.

    Liked by 3 people

  5. Great post Tom. I agree with Aaron on the last paragraph. @ Aaron. I like what you said too. God owes us zip if we want to be perfectly honest. As they saying goes, we were created in His imaged, yet we persist in remaking Him in ours.

    Thanks for the link. And you are welcome to have this entire conversation, if you have the patience for it. I really don’t any more.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. I am please you think well of it. The link was my pleasure.

      To some extent I thinks God forgives us when we remake Him in our image. We can only imagine God. We cannot comprehend Him. So in a literal sense we never worship the true God.

      I believe idol worship arises when we focus on ourselves instead of God. Then we stop trying to comprehend and love God Himself. Then we start worshiping a fiction of our own creation and desires.

      insanitybytes22 hit upon just that, I think, when she spoke of the chaos and the crazy things we pour into that abyss of a God-sized hole. When we loose sight of God and think of what we want, things do get messy.

      Liked by 1 person

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