AN ABSENCE OF REAL DEBATE

Government spending
Government spending (Photo credit: 401(K) 2013)

Yesterday I visited Moonhowlings, and I got a laugh out of this post, The newest dumb-ass skit from the monkey court. Then I visited Open Thread…………………………………………..Saturday, November 2. Emma, Moon-howler, and the others had essentially resumed the discussion from The newest dumb-ass skit from the monkey court. So I decided to join the fun.

Citizen Tom November 3rd, 2013 at 22:28
When I saw Ellmers Questions Sebelius on Obamacare
Failures, I cracked up. Thanks for posting it (here).
Moon-howler, when you and Emma discuss these issues, I think you begin with some false premises about government.

1. Because the people who run our government have the capacity — the wisdom — to know what is best, for our own good we should let them boss the rest of us around.
2. Being in the majority gives you the right to make the minority do whatever it is you want.
3. Redistributing the wealth is ethical.
4. Power does not corrupt politicians.
5. So long as there is equal representation, taxation is ethical. How the money is spent does not matter.
6. No matter how much power and responsibility we give it, the “system” can be made to work.

I could go on, but here is the point. I would like you to take a moment to back off from specific issues such as what is included in Obamacare. It is more important to consider whether using the government to “give” people their “rights” is ethical. If you insist upon jumping straight into implementation issues (I fear most Democrats refuse to seriously discuss the ethics of Socialism.), then I suggest you look carefully at that last false premise, #6.

The beauty of the free market is that it allows everyone to be a decision-maker. Instead of waiting upon some bigwig to tell us what to do, we make our own choices. Based upon what people want — what they are willing to pay for, we find a job or start a business. Then we take what we have earned and do the same for others. Instead of giving half of what we earn to government, we allow people to spend what they earn. Then an amazing thing happens. They spend it more efficiently and wisely than politicians.

What does government do for us? When we have disputes, we go to government for justice. Then we depend upon government to be a neutral third party. When government starts to runs things like Obamacare, for example, we destroy that neutrality. That’s why Socialism is so bad. When we need government to provide for justice, Socialism renders government incapable to the objectivity needed to provide for justice. Because of Socialism, government is no longer a third party.

Justice is blind means that justice is impartial and objective.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Justice (from here)

Unfortunately, my comment did not sit well with Moon-howler.

Moon-howler November 4th, 2013 at 02:10

CT, I looked at some of your ‘voters guides’ and have decided I would question the ethics of such a guide that clearly endorses candidates based on a number of pre-set political topics. I find many of them to cause eye brows to raise. For instance, is there a Christian stance on what kind of energy we consume? Are we just guessing that Jesus wants us to mine coal and then burn it? How does He feel about the pollution it causes?

I am one of those separation of church/state people. I like my religion clear of politics and my politics clear of religion. You obviously feel this is a proper job for religion and that people should vote according to their faith. While I believe we want our policy to reflect the overall tennents of our faith, I don’t think the Good Book as a lot to say about health care or energy, off shore drilling, charter schools or Medicaid expansion.

I would think that feeding the poor and helping the sick might be a little more in line with the Good Book but what do I know. (from here)

Note that did not respond to my comment. If you are inclined to think of Conservatives or Christians as narrow-minded and intolerant, please think about that.

What did Moon-howler do?

  • She took a shot at CHRISTIAN VOTER GUIDES: UPDATE 2. Are these voter guides biased? Well, anyone who thinks voter guides are not intended to affect the outcome of an election would have to be naive. Although it has never happened, if a church advocates for a particular candidate, supposedly the IRS will take away its tax exemption.  So many Christian voter guides just list each candidate’s positions on relevant issues and let readers think for themselves. Check out 2013 ALTERNATIVE VOTER GUIDES. Non-Christian groups have the same problem.
  • She raised the usual objection about mixing religion and politics. Since it suits my purpose, let’s consider that issue in more detail.

Due to our own limitations, the Bible does not speak to absolutely every imaginable topic. Nonetheless, the Bible has a great deal say about the way conduct ourselves. That includes how we run our government. The Jews referred to the Old Testament as their Law, and they used it to govern Israel. Hence, when he wrote Common Sense, to point out the evils of monarchy and the rule of King George III, Thomas Paine found it profitable to reference the Bible. Check out ONE OF THE SINS OF THE JEWS. In particular, Paine wrote about 1 Samuel 8. If you have not read this chapter of the Bible before, I think you are in for a surprise.

The Bible is a book with wisdom that spans the ages. Without saying anything about coal mining, pollution, charter schools or modern health care, the Bible tells us what life is about and how we should live. For example, what would the Bible say about redistributing the wealth? The Bible calls taking property from one person giving it to another stealing. It does not make any distinctions about tax credits, “free” health care, “free” schooling, “free” housing or “free” anything. Although the Bible clearly advocates feeding the poor and helping the sick, it defines charity as giving away our own property, not what belongs to somebody else.

Does that sound harsh? Then consider our predicament. Because we have become a nation that uses government to steal from each other, we cannot control our spending. Yet we have a finite amount of wealth. We can print bags and bags of money, but our possessions will not increase. Therefore, we risk becoming bankrupt, and should we become bankrupt, many of us will find it difficult to feed, cloth, and shelter ourselves.

One last thought. Is ‘s unwillingness to debate the ethics of Obamacare new? No. During Lincoln – Douglas Debates of 1858, Senator Stephen Douglas refused to discuss the ethics of slavery. Essentially, Douglas justified slavery on the basis of majority rule. If the majority of the whites in a state wanted slavery, then he had no problem with slavery.

It’s surprising how little we change, but I suppose that is why the Bible remains relevant.

5 thoughts on “AN ABSENCE OF REAL DEBATE

  1. That’s why I have made it my mission to debunk “separation of church and state”. She said she’s “one of those people”, Now many who are atheist that I’ve spoken to will often make claims that religion, Christianity especially, is nothing more than a fairy tale. Well I have news for them thinking that separation of church and state exists in the constitution is nothing more than a progressive fairy tale that can be discredited by many founders. It is a flawed tactic used simply to hide behind rather than actually debating the points that one presents hoping that their challenger is ignorant of history.

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    1. phadde2 – It is a worthwhile mission. To a large extent, that is the mission of this blog, but I can’t say I have a great solution. God help us. I think that is the only hope we have. Because they already think they know what is in the Bible, few people think it worth their bother to read it. In fact, I suspect people even fear the Bible. Most understand that God wants their worship, and that worship requires total dedication. To a people as as accustomed to being as self-indulgent as our own, that is frightening. Yet if they believed, then they would have to make a choice.

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  2. Phadde2: many of us who are deeply religious are very much opposed to government involvement in religious activities. We feel that government interference debases religion. I happen to be a Christian, but I think this sentiment may extend to other religions as well. There is absolutely nothing about government functions that elevates or improves on religious expression, a realm of human existence that has little to do with this world, but much to do with the next. If there are people who think that government can have no improving influence on health care, they REALLY don’t want government involvement in religion.

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  3. @ Tom: I have never noticed that Moon is reluctant to engage on the ethics of health care. That has been a common theme at that site. Where did you get the idea that she avoids that issue?

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    1. scout – Moonhowler begins with the assumption that something needs to be done by government. She does not seriously consider the ethics of government doing something. What she consider is the efficacy of what the government does.

      Think about this statement.

      I have very few premises about government. Just IS. (from http://www.moonhowlings.net/index.php/2013/11/01/open-thread-saturday-november-2/#comment-198820)

      If whatever IS is ethical, then to make whatever we want ethical, we just have to change what IS.

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