Citizen Tom:

When I tried to play the first video, nothing happened (probably getting too many hits). So I found another source, http://75.101.208.57/topic/chief+economist.

Note that there is a lot of talk about Obamacare being an Obamatax. Ironically, the only way Justice Roberts could save Obamacare was to call Obama a liar and call his penalty a tax. Thus, we have Obama using innumerable lies to peddle costly,  unconstitutional law, and we have Justice Roberts concocting a weird legal decision that directly contradicts Obama statement that his healthcare mandate was not a tax.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave

When first we practise to deceive!

—  Walter Scott (from here)

Originally posted on Catholibertarian:

Nearly 75% of Obamacare costs will fall on people earning $120,000 or less per year.

Democrats lied to the American people when they claimed that the mandated payment for refusal to purchase health insurance wasn’t a tax. Then, the administration argued that it was a tax before the Supreme Court. Now, they’re denying that it is a tax after Chief Justice Roberts declared the penalty payment to be a tax.

From Gateway Pundit: 

A Fraud Has Been Perpetrated On the American Citizenry

Democrats told us Obamacare was not a tax. Then they went before the Supreme Court and argued that it was a tax. Now they’re saying it’s not a tax again.
The American Spectator reported:

Critics of the majority’s decision will say for the foreseeable future that Chief Justice Roberts rewrote Obamacare to save it. Michael Carvin, who argued against Obamacare before the Supreme Court, noted dryly, “I’m glad…

View original 350 more words

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About Citizen Tom

I am just an average citizen interested in promoting informed participation in the political process.
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34 Responses to

  1. joesix says:

    Luckily, there are some countries left where you can escape the tyranny of socialized medicine. They include Haiti, Turkmenistan, Bangladesh, and almost every country in Africa.

    • Citizen Tom says:

      The most advanced nations in the world have a Christian heritage, and they became the most advanced nations after the publication of the Bible. Following your logic, everyone should become a Christian.

      Frankly, since it is not logical, I don’t much care for your logic. I suggest you google “logical fallacies”. You are Begging the Question. You are assuming that Socialism is responsible for good medical care when in fact medical care is worsening in the nations that have adopted socialized medicine. Capitalism, not Socialism, produced the prosperity and relatively good health care we experience in the West.

      • joesix says:

        The most advanced nations in the world are not theocracies. I encourage you to Google. . . screw it, you’re not going to Google anything. Nobody ever Googles anything after being insulted. Let me do this for you.

        The World Health Organization ranked US health care 37th best in 2000. We were behind countries with socialized medicine, and most of those countries continue to avoid being labeled dictatorships.

        http://www.photius.com/rankings/who_world_health_ranks.html

        The Commonwealth Fund ranked the US dead last in health care among Britain, Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, Australia, and New Zealand in 2010. They found we pay twice as much as these countries for lower quality and less efficiency.

        http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/23/us-usa-healthcare-last-idUSTRE65M0SU20100623

        As someone who’s actually experienced European health care first-hand (in third-world Bulgaria, mind you), I can tell you that they would never deny care to someone because he didn’t have enough money. The infrastructure and equipment from the Soviet-era hospital was quite outdated, but after a week of in-stay treatment for pneumonia that included X-rays, a private room, and an ambulance ride, my girlfriend’s bill came out to about 100 US dollars (by comparison, my 10-hour stay in a US hospital for pneumonia was about $1,000). The doctors looked at me like I was crazy when I told them that neither of us had health insurance.

        It’s a similar situation for me now in South Korea. I recently watched my girlfriend (who apparently has the worst luck abroad) get a wisdom tooth pulled for a $10 copay. A week’s worth of medication came out to about $3.

  2. Citizen Tom says:

    The World Health Organization is agency of the United Nations. That is not an outfit I take seriously.

    Why is medical care costly in this country? There are two reasons.
    1. We do not have a free market health care system. Have you ever consider all the government money and interference we already have in our health care? So think for a minute about your silly statistics. Even if it were wise to take them seriously, what you are comparing is a system that the government has almost taken over with systems that government has completely taken over. Our politicians are still squeezing the life (or money) out of our system.
    2. Patients wants the service. If I want to pay for something, what right do you have to stop me?

    Is government-run health care actually less expensive? Once government has completely taken over a health care system, the bureaucrats control the costs by rationing health care. Imagine DMV style health care.
    • You stand in line to get an appointment with a doctor.
    • You stand in line at the doctor’s office waiting to see the doctor.
    • After you see the doctor, if he orders tests, then you stand in line to get permission from a bureaucrat to have the tests.
    • Assuming you the government will let you have the tests, you stand in line to get an appointment to have the tests.
    • And so forth.

    Time is money. DMV style healthcare may be you want, a system with all competition removed, but the rich and those able and willing to make the sacrifice required to avoid it won’t participate. They will do the same thing did when the government took over our education system. They will use their wealth and whatever it takes to purchase private health care.

    You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”
    ― Adrian Rogers
    See http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/64616.Adrian_Rogers

    • joesix says:

      Actually, our government still gives the health care industry more free reign than most other industrialized countries. If you want to pay for a service with a ridiculously high markup, you’re absolutely entitled to. I’m just concerned about the millions of other Americans who can’t afford that choice. It’s seems like the Christian thing to do.

      Your list of inefficiencies in government-run systems just doesn’t match up to what I’ve experienced. In South Korea alone, I’ve been to a doctor, dentist, dermatologist, and gynecologist all without an appointment. I never had to wait more than half an hour to be treated by English-speaking professionals with access to the most modern medical technology. I’m open to hearing your own personal horror story involving socialized medicine (it would be the first one I heard).

      • Citizen Tom says:

        joesix – Think about what you are demanding. Because your personal experience says it is okay, you are demanding that the government rob Peter to pay for Paul’s healthcare. Who made you God? What justifies such robbery? Without any real competition, how long do you think any government can sustain a quality health care system?

        You want a common, every day example? We drive on roads built and maintained by our government with cars produced by private industry. The cars work great. Yet even though we spend a fortune on roads, we sit in traffic jams. What is the problem? We choose what kind of car we buy, but government takes our money and purchases our roads “for us.”

      • joesix says:

        My personal experience says it works. I asked you for a similar anecdote relating to foreign health care, and you tell me about cars and roads.

        American cars break down, government roads break down. So what? Should private industry have full control over us? Should I forget about when the American car companies almost went bankrupt three years ago? The housing market crash? BP?

        I’m not advocating for full-on socialism, I’m bringing up the point that every industrialized country in the world has socialized medicine and the people there don’t feel any less free or healthy.

  3. Citizen Tom says:

    joesix – My personal experience says it will not, cannot, and does not work. Because they are inherently immoral, Socialistic systems eventually break down. You think the idea is new? It is not. We have plenty of history. You cannot cite an example where a socialist system did not sooner or latter fail. Our public school system is the latest example. All the proponents can do is whine about money, money, money….. Supposedly, if we do not approve of the public schools and give the administrators more to spend, we hate teachers, we are selfish, we don’t care about children, we are religious bigots, and so forth. Yet the fact is the public school system wastes huge sums and deprives parents of the funds they would otherwise use to educate their children their own way.

    Socialists never discuss the basic issue. They never address whether Robin Hood government is moral. They just pretend that issue does not exist. So each year, whether we want it or not, politicians connive to nationalize a greater percentage of our economy. And all the while those same politicians pretend they care so much. They feel our pain.

    • joesix says:

      Tommy, please. I’m dying to hear about your personal experience with foreign health care.

      But you did somehow bring up public education again, so I’ll take the opportunity to again ask how parents can educate their children when they don’t have time for homeschooling, money for private school, and they don’t live near any 1830s hippie communes.

      Any government that takes taxes is inherently a “Robin Hood” government that indirectly teaches a certain morality. Is it moral? That’s relative. Some governments that take taxes are dictatorships, some are on the verge of anarchy. I hear Turkmenistan is beautiful this time of year.

      • Citizen Tom says:

        joesix – I don’t recall ever saying I have any experience with foreign healthcare. I also don’t use my personal experiences to foist my beliefs upon others. What I use are facts we can share in common.

        Before there were government-run schools, people somehow managed to educate their children. We will address this tomorrow.

        Because of our sinful nature, we need government to protect our rights. Unfortunately, after we create a government, we have another problem, protecting ourselves from the abuse of government power.

        Since no one can protect his rights by himself, taxing the people to establish military and police forces and a court system is therefore justifiable. However, taxing someone just to give his wealth to someone else is just plain thievery. Moreover, when we allow our leaders steal from one group just to give to another, we have given them a tool to divide us. Thus, Socialism poses both moral and practical problems that make it foolhardy to implement.

      • joesix says:

        If you don’t have any experience with foreign health care, then you don’t have much basis for your arguments. You have a long list of supposed problems with socialized medicine, but with no citation to back it up (and my personal readings and experiences that refute it), I’m not buying any of it. I suspect you know this, and that’s why you’ve gone off topic into a philosophical argument about public education and socialism.

  4. Citizen Tom says:

    joesix – Since few Americans have any experience with foreign healthcare, I doubt foreign healthcare had anything to do with the passage of Obamacare. Moreover, since your experience would only provide anecdotal evidence from an unknown source, it is useless to speak of it.

    Your so-called statistical evidence is also useless. Do you really think government-run agencies can be relied upon to provide unbiased statistical studies on their own operations?

    Why speak of public education? Obamacare is Socialism. Our public school systems are also Socialist operations. Since the basic flaws are the same…

    Anyway, you want something more on topic. Note that the language gets a little crude, but the video is not laced with pointless profanities.

    H/T to http://boudicabpi.wordpress.com/2012/07/08/eat-the-poison-says-obama-the-mad-cook/

    • joesix says:

      My anecdotal evidence comes directly from me — that’s the opposite of an unknown source. The WHO is a specialized agency within the UN meant to monitor and improve health care throughout the world. The Commonwealth Fund is a private foundation not associated with any government.

      You’ve provided me with no anecdotal evidence or statistical evidence, so I’m not sure how you expected to change my mind. Imagine someone trying to convince you to stop drinking water solely out of principle.

      Obamacare, specifically the individual mandate that conservatives have been up in arms about, couldn’t be farther from socialism as it actually encourages people to buy private insurance. This is the same idea that Republicans championed in the 90s and was actually put in place by a Republican governor in Massachusetts. But now it’s somehow the first step to making us Nazi Germany. Left-wing nuts like myself do have a dream of a single-payer, Medicare-for-all kind of system, but we’re still many years off from such a system (which we already know works in the countries that have it).

      I’ll watch the video later on a computer with speakers, but if there’s more than ten profanities, I get to post a George Carlin video.

  5. Citizen Tom says:

    joesix – With http://citizentom.com/2012/07/09/corrupted-by-our-supposed-generosity-part-5/, I think have already replied to your corporate news media references. Nonetheless, in 1978 a wiser man than I gave a speech you may find more compelling than whatever I might write. I will post a reference to what he said on Monday.

  6. Citizen Tom says:

    joesix – It occurs to me that what you don’t understand is the difference between hype and reality. In reality (what the statistics are designed to cover over), government-run health care does not work.

    http://rogueoperator.wordpress.com/2012/07/11/obamacares-stairway-to-debt-heaven/

    Before Obamacare our government already spent huge sums on healthcare. Those programs were already breaking us. What Obamacare does is add to an already horrid problem.

    What messiah politicians do is use our money to buy power and influence; they do not care if we go broke. What messiah politicians produce is fraud, waste, abuse, and trillion dollar deficits.
    Take a good look at those European economies the news media brags about. For the most part, they are economic basket cases.

    Will an alcoholic take a drink of hard liquor to cure his hangover? Yes. The propensity to make that sort of decision is what defines him as an addict.
    .

    • joesix says:

      If you’re going to lecture me about reality, you might want to direct me to a blogger (or an actual news source) who doesn’t omit the CBO’s equally important projections of how much money Obamacare is expected to cut off of the deficit.

      The government still spends huge sums on healthcare — the most in the world, actually. Those European economies spend a significantly smaller part of their GDP on healthcare ( http://www.marketwatch.com/health-care/reform/snapshot ). There’s countless variables causing some European countries to fail economically, and healthcare is just a small part of that ( http://www.marketwatch.com/health-care/reform/snapshot ).

      • Citizen Tom says:

        We have an economy that produces a GDP of 16 trillion dollars a year. Just the healthcare sector by itself is too complex for politicians to run. Do we really want to filter every important (and some not so important because they can’t tell the difference) decision we make through a bunch of bureaucrats. Even if these politically appointed wonders had the intelligence, they would not have the wisdom to deal the conflicts of interest that arise when the try to both operate and regulate the same entity. If the politicians who appointed them had such wisdom, they would never attempt to take over our healthcare system.

        The basic issue issue is fundamental. What business is it of government to take people’s money and buy their healthcare for them, particularly when those generous politicians have no intention of subjecting themselves to the same healthcare system? Like you, they don’t even know how to discuss the ethics. Sad. Truly sad.

  7. joesix says:

    You would deny millions of Americans access to available medical care out of some fundamental principle. At least you said it, and not me.

    Strangely enough, every important decision is not filtered through bureaucrats in countries with socialized medicine, and it will not happen under Obamacare, which is still leagues away from anything in those countries. The first Fareed Zakaria article I left for you tackles the problem of why democratic governments must play a role in healthcare. Zakaria and another self-proclaimed “free-market advocate” lament the reality that healthcare is too important and complex to be controlled by corporations that make money off of people staying sick. Here it is again, in case you missed it before:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/fareed-zakaria-curbing-the-cost-of-health-care/2012/07/04/gJQAxkr7NW_story.html

    • Citizen Tom says:

      Horrors. I must be such an evil soul. On the same basis I would deny millions of Americans access to mansions, fabulous golf courses, vacations in Hawaii, expensive silk clothing, diamond rings,…

      Look at what you have done. In order justify stealing, you have twisted the definitions of words. Actually, I am not denying anyone anything. Just as all Americans have the right to live in a huge mansion, play golf on a fabulous golf course, vacation in Hawaii, wear expensive silk clothing and a diamond ring,…I concede everyone has a right to pay for their own healthcare. To protect everyone from greedy businessmen, I will also concede that government should regulate commerce, including healthcare delivery.

      What Americans don’t need are masterminds running their lives. If you and Fareed Zakaria want to be the masterminds of your own pocketbook, you have that right, but you have no business taking other what others have earned just so you can redistribute their wealth. When you cannot be trusted with words, you cannot be trusted with the wealth of others. You would not protect the access of Americans to healthcare; you would just steal from them.

      • joesix says:

        At least you said it, and not me. I would add that golf courses, vacations in Hawaii, expensive silk clothing, and diamond rings don’t typically save people’s lives. It also seems worth mentioning that prior to January 2009, the government’s appropriation of individuals’ and corporations’ incomes was called “taxes,” and not “stealing.”

  8. Citizen Tom says:

    joesix – What you are demanding is a government that gives you things. That’s stealing. What you want involves unlimited government taxation and power — and no individual rights to life, liberty, and property.

    What government is suppose to do is protect our rights to life, liberty, and property. We cannot have what you want and still have a government that protects our rights. Therefore, what you want is impossible.

  9. joesix says:

    I’m demanding no such thing. I’m arguing for my country to be the best it can be, to adopt a healthcare system Iceland’s had since 1990, Italy since 1978, Finland since 1972, Canada since 1966, and Norway since 1912. These countries have been protecting their citizens’ rights just fine. They have higher average life spans and spend less on healthcare as part of their GDP.

    • Citizen Tom says:

      Arguing for? Oh, you are such a kind fellow. You would just empower politicians to penalty/tax people and throw them in jail if they don’t either pay the tax or go along with your Utopian schemes. What constitutes a demand? Killing anyone who complains?

      I don’t care about your statistical lies. Here is why. If you cannot be honest about what you are proposing — if you have to use language that covers up what you are doing — then what you are doing is wrong.

      • joesix says:

        Obviously, as a hippie leftist tree-hugger I don’t condone the killing of anyone (nor would I condone the needless deaths of Americans due to a lack of affordable healthcare). Please enlighten me about what I’m not honest about. Let me know what the real statistics are, if everything I’ve read is a lie. Tell me about the fascism now happening in Iceland, Italy, Finland, Canada, and Norway. Back up your own hyperbolic rhetoric with facts.

  10. Citizen Tom says:

    joesix – If your own words are not sufficient….

    nor would I condone the needless deaths of Americans due to a lack of affordable healthcare

    I believe that logical fallacy is called a false dilemma.

    When they started their various revolutions, Communists justified their murderous regimes by claiming the necessity of class warfare. Since none of us are angels, there was just enough truth in their lies to persuade the gullible.

    What gives away the lie of such Utopian schemes is the “necessity” the increased government powers required to redistribute the wealth. Unfortunately, for some reason you find such facts convenient to ignore.

    • joesix says:

      You continue to present a false choice between freedom and tyranny. Are Iceland, Italy, Finland, Canada, and Norway communist dystopias killing the rich to serve the poor?

      • Citizen Tom says:

        You remind me of a child. “But Timmy’s parents let him …..”

        I have asked you repeatedly to explain the morality of Obamacare. I have asked you to show me examples of where Socialism has succeeded for any length of time. Instead, you point to neighbors in the process of destroying themselves.

        Because we have plenty of history, the destructive nature of Socialism is no longer mysterious. It is just a slow poison. It takes time for a republic to destroy itself.

        For awhile, Socialism seems to work. Public servants, use to doing the right thing, continue to do the right thing — for awhile. Slowly, however, the corruption that is redistributing the wealth — stealing — spreads its tendrils and saps and weakens their consciences.

        Here is an example. We use to pay for highways and large bridges with tolls. Then some politicians got a bright idea. Because nobody — just taxpayers — had to pay for them, they called their bright idea “freeways”. Seeing that “free” was popular, a certain Republican president popularized the concept. He built the Interstate Highway System, and state governments built more “free” roads too.

        To amusement of many, we call many “freeways” parkways. Thus, we have an old joke. Why do we park in driveways and drive on parkways? Unfortunately, that joke is not so funny anymore. Without the requirement to collect tolls to pay for roads, politicians no longer have much incentive to build roads that satisfy the people who actually use them. Instead, politicians try to make campaign donors such as developers happy. So we now park quite a bit on parkways and on interstate highways too.

      • joesix says:

        I’m at a loss of how to explain why helping your fellow citizens receive access to affordable healthcare is a moral thing to do. Our past discussions about religion leads me to believe that you already think it’s moral to heal sick people. I seem to remember some story about Jesus healing lepers without concern about whether they were communists.

        If your definition of socialism is any government with a socialized healthcare system, then I have absolutely given you examples of where it has succeeded. Do you remember me mentioning Iceland, Italy, Finland, Canada, and Norway? Can you show me evidence of how they’re destroying themselves? The insurance mandate system from Obamacare actually has less government involved and has worked well enough for Belgium, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and my current home of South Korea ( http://truecostblog.com/2009/08/09/countries-with-universal-healthcare-by-date/ ). Can you show me evidence of how they’re destroying themselves?

        I can’t claim to know about the quality of public versus private roads as I haven’t come across any freeways, parkways, or driveways in poor enough condition for me step on the breaks and interpret it as an example about capitalism and socialism. People smarter and more passionate than myself do see the pros and cons of both systems and point out that even private roads receive government subsidies ( http://cdn.publicinterestnetwork.org/assets/H5Ql0NcoPVeVJwymwlURRw/Private-Roads-Public-Costs.pdf ).

        I happen to be on strike from my private school today after finding out my employer hasn’t been paying any money into my pension, even after taking out hundreds of dollars from my paychecks. Situations like this are actually a very common occurrence for private school teachers in South Korea, but I’ve yet to read about or meet other teachers go through this at public schools. I’m not saying everything in the private sector is fueled by greed and the public sector always follows the will of the people — I’m pointing out that we shouldn’t view this healthcare debate as a stark choice between corporatism and fascism.

        Your continued assurance that universal healthcare doesn’t work despite your lack of evidence or personal experience reminds me of an overly obstinate parent. “I don’t care what Timmy, Sven, Mario, Gwen, Lars, and Mikael’s parents do. Mrs. Fox heard from Reverend Beck who heard from someone else that terrorists are poisoning the Halloween candy!”

  11. Citizen Tom says:

    Joesix – I will answer you on Sunday in a post.

    Sorry to hear about the strike. I expect that is a bit stressful.

    When we hear about such things, often all we can do is pray for the parties involved. In this case, that includes your employer. Withholding wages is sinful. If your employer has deliberately connived to cheat you and your fellow teachers, then his soul is in danger. So I will pray for him too.

    It is something we often forget, but the crucial factor in the success of any society is how much the People respect each other’s rights. Where the People seek first and foremost their own good, it matters not how they govern themselves. No matter what system of government they pretend to use they will be a sorry lot.

  12. Citizen Tom says:

    Joesix – Your link, http://cdn.publicinterestnetwork.org/assets/H5Ql0NcoPVeVJwymwlURRw/Private-Roads-Public-Costs.pdf, is interesting, but I don’t need to be convinced that toll road privatization is a bad idea. Because they are too complex and too hard to monitor for fraud, waste and abuse, I don’t support anything that looks like a so-called public-private partnership. What I advocate is that the people who use a road pay for it. Government can sell bonds to finance a road. Then government can pay off the bonds with tolls. That’s complicated enough.

    • joesix says:

      Thank you for your concern. We received the money we were owed, though we’ll probably have another strike as we get closer to our departure date next month since the twelve other foreign teachers before us never got their final paychecks and severance pay.

      As I mentioned before, I’m not passionate about roads or willing to interpret them as a broad example of capitalism versus socialism. Tolls are nonexistent in my home state of Arizona, and we all seem to drive along just fine (until the cops pull us over for having dark skin).

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