If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it must be a duck.
Topic: Proverbs
Source: (Italian)
Of late, a commenter who goes by the name of RR Edwards has sought to dominate the discussion on this blog (at this post). His basic technique is to be disagreeable. Unless you agree with him, you are entirely wrong. Other than in the eradication of Christianity and apparently every other religion, it is difficult to figure out what Edwards believes. So even if you want to, you probably could not agree with him.
Is Edwards an “Internet troll?” Perhaps. For those who are unfamiliar with the term, the Old Fashion Liberal came up with this definition.
An Internet troll is someone who posts offensive, controversial, or divisive material on an Internet community. Trolls are an unfortunately common occurrence on many communities across the Internet, and there are various steps which can be taken to combat them. If you are currently struggling with an Internet troll, the best thing to do is to walk away, since trolls feed on attention, and they will usually disappear if they are ignored. (continued here)
Based upon the definition and that old duck proverb, I think we can safely classify Edwards as an Internet troll. He certainly has not had much that is positive to say about anybody or their beliefs. Moreover, I think his cause, the eradication of Christianity, is at least somewhat controversial.
Anyway, Edwards visits do provide an excuse to quote a few Bible verses. What verses? Since Edwards sows confusion over what it means to be a Christian, I will quote some verses from 1 John that clarify the matter.
First of all, what does it mean to be a follower of Christ?
1 John 1:5-10 (Today’s New International Version)
Light and Darkness, Sin and Forgiveness
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
So Christianity is about the forgiveness of sins and the effort to become holy. To become holy, we must avoid sin. What does it take to avoid sin? How do we avoid being lead astray?
1 John 3:7-10 (Today’s New International Version)
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. Those who are born of God will not continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Those who do not do what is right are not God’s children; nor are those who do not love their brothers and sisters.
We must seek what is righteous, and we must be reborn of God. And how do we know what is right? How are we reborn?
1 John 4:7-21 (Today’s New International Version)
God’s Love and Ours
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
We love because he first loved us. If we say we love God yet hate a brother or sister, we are liars. For if we do not love a fellow believer, whom we have seen, we cannot love God, whom we have not seen. And he has given us this command: Those who love God must also love one another.
Ultimately, Christianity is about faith in God’s love in the form of Jesus Christ. What distinguished Jesus? We say that Jesus was a man, and we say that Jesus was God. As a man Jesus needed the love of the Father. As God, Jesus knew the love of the Father with absolute certainty. No one else before or since has had such certainty. Thus, no man is good, certainly not as good as was Jesus. Yet when we strive to love one another, God lives in us and His love is made complete in us.
1 John 1:5-10 (Today’s New International Version)
Light and Darkness, Sin and Forgiveness
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all [a] sin.8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
I always seem to get suckered into dialoging with trolls and people who just want to be mean or contrary. I keep thinking if I try to reason….
My husband says this is a fault of mine–that I often try to treat the unreasonable as if they were reasonable. I should learn “the wisdom to know the difference,” but it’s not in my nature to give up.
Katherine Gotthardt – I doubt that a great many know the difference between the unreasonable and the reasonable. Look at the content that we now put on what we fondly refer to as the mass media. So long as the material results in increased ratings, the most absurd and idiotic notions become fair game. Without the constraints that come with religious values, personal profit governs every decision. The masses don’t matter, and that is what the mass media is for, people who don’t matter. You and I are just a few of the masses, of course. But in our pride we like to think of everyone else as the “masses.”
But I divert myself. Since Edwards is a human being, to say he is an Internet troll says little about him. The phrase merely describes, and describes poorly, an aspect of his behavior.
Can Edwards be reasoned with? I don’t know, but since this website exists to debate controversial subjects, his presence does not bother me. Edwards will express his desire for the eradication of Christianity somewhere. Here I and others can easily counteract his cantankerous tirades, and perhaps in time he will listen to reason. Or, better yet, perhaps he will read and try to understand the Bible.
I suppose my husband defines “unreasonable” as continuously contrary simply to be contrary. Some people just love to be contrary.
I am not sure I would consider RR an internet troll. “Trolls” are usually mean–at least, that is what I would add to the definition. RR isn’t mean. That said, when I find a troll, I always hope to get him/her to stop being mean. It doesn’t work.
Katherine Gotthardt – Not mean? When someone makes it his business to eradicate your religion, he is trying to be nice?
If a thief robs you with a charming smile, does that make him any less the thief? No. It just makes him politician.
What RR is doing is following the expected protocol. He not using foul language nor is he making direct personal attacks with such language. Nonetheless, he is attacking foundational religious beliefs with arguments are that are superficial and silly. I don’t doubt he despises Christianity, but what does he believe that justifies such foolish behavior? Would you attack your neighbor’s religion with such frivolous nonsense?
LMAO – awe, I am famous now.
Let me make a few corrections or adjustments.
1st My objective is to eradicate lies and immorality as much as possible. Eradicating Christianity would simply be incidental to that. Unless there is some unknown argument that I haven’t seen that show the Christian tradition is anything more than a lie, I think you can understand then my view. I understand that offends some people, however, it is no more offensive than when a person feigns knowledge of god or gods “will” or gods “mind” or gods “plan”.
2nd The real stir, I believe, is that many Christians try to dismiss their shameful Nazi and KKK brethren as “not Christian”. Someone even argued that anyone who does anything bad is not a Christian no matter what they claim or believe.
3rd I will admit to being somewhat of a contrarian, but if you review the thread I think you will see that I am the only person who provided any positive assertion of agreement or admitted any mistakes. Wouldn’t that tend to show you have ironically overstated your case?
4th I am the only person who offered fact-based arguments based on rigorous evidence rather than just a persons interpretation of what someone else told them.
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Let me quote C.S. Lewis who studied with prominent leaders of the Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Roman Catholic churchs, specifically about what does it mean to be a Christian. Here is the basic conclusion:
“The point is not a theological, or moral one. It is only a question of using words so that we can all understand what is being said. When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than to say he is not a Christian.” -C.S. Lewis
Ironically, Lewis -like most Christians- was in complete denial that Nazi’s were Christians. It is a well hidden secret – popular thing to deny. To me, the very example of the Christian denial of the Nazi branch is an example of how powerful and “evil” lies are.
So let us appeal to a superior authority on what the word itself means. That is, the only thing that makes language useful is when we have a common source fundamental authority on the definition of a word. Without it – communication is simply not possible.
Websters is very clear on what a Christian is:
“One who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ”
RR, how do you “prove” something is a lie, especially if religious people take things on faith? The very nature of faith necessitates believing in a God that cannot necessarily be seen or understood. Likewise, in science, certain scientific “truths” must be believed if we wish to progress from a particular point. But given the limitations of our human brains, I don’t especially believe there is absolute proof of scientific “law” either.
Human beings created “religion” as an institution. Human beings also created “science” as a discipline. It is all fallible, and therefore, subject to being labeled either lie or fact.
RR – I see no reason to take your propositions seriously. What I will address are your errors in approach and logic.
Approach — What you have offered is what you are against. You have not said what you are for or why. Given the number and size of your comments, that indicates one of two things: (1) you are afraid you cannot defend what you believe or (2) a shallow understanding.
Unless we want to be enslaved to and dominated by our hatred of something or someone else, then what should define us is what we are for, not what we are against.
Logic — Let’s look at your quote of C. S. Lewis. Consider the structure of his statement. It includes this premise, a man accepts the Christian doctrine. If I could convince practicing Buddhists to call themselves Christians, would that label change by itself make them Christians?
To used words proficiently, we have to think about what the words actually mean. We have to take the thoughts a phrase, sentence, and paragraph create to its logical conclusion. What does it indicate, for example, when someone “professes belief.” If that someone only spouts the words but does follow through in deed, do they actually believe what they say? If I rob and murder strangers in the dark of night, would I be living a Christian life? Would I be following the commands of Jesus or Satan?
If I handed you a rattlesnake and called it a kitten, would you pet it? Yet to accept your arguments, I would have to be willing to pet a rattlesnake just because you called it a kitten.
The quote about being a politician is especially funny, Tom. I so appreciate when you interject random and rare humor into your posts. I mean that sincerely. You are usually so serious, which I also respect and enjoy, but your occasional irony is wonderful.
In any event, while I do not believe attacking one’s religion is “nice” it doesn’t seem personal to RR–or at least it doesn’t strike me that way. You yourself have strongly objected to Islam and at times, other religions you feel are inferior to your own. I don’t think that is “nice” but I try not to take that personally.
Trolls tend to get more personal. For example, RR might accuse you of being a rotten person or a rotten Christian simply because he doesn’t like Christianity. I think there’s a difference there. However, if you are offended, I am sorry because I don’t like people to feel trampled on because their beliefs are different. I often feel trampled on by vicious people who refuse to even consider what I am saying might have an element of validity, and I know it’s not a good feeling.
Katherine Gotthardt – I don’t object to other religions. I do two things.
1. Because I believe Christianity is superior, I promote Christianity. I point out what distinguishes Christianity and makes it superior. I would not set out to eradicate another religion. Jesus did not force anyone to become a Christian. So I am suppose to do it? I do not think so.
2. I defend myself and my country. Mohamed was a temporal ruler. He made Islam both a religion and a form of government. As a matter of religious practice, Muslims use government to suppress the practice of other religions. That is in the Koran, and a straightforward fact, not a criticism.
What RR is says he wants to do is eradicate Christianity (his own word). Then he proceeds to compare Christianity with Nazism and the KKK. His arguments are so thin they do not deserve to be taken seriously. He is just trying to provoke anger.
You could be right about RR, Tom.
And thanks for clarifying your position a little more.