One of the favorite tactics of the folks involved in politics is name calling. It is easy. It is cheap, and it is quite often effective.
What is particularly ridiculous about the whole thing is both sides do it. Then both sides accuse each other of negative campaigning. Blogs, in particular, engage in this behavior.
What is the problem? Instead of discussing issues, we spend a bunch of time defending ourselves. Of course, such a defense is hopeless. How can you prove something is not true? What is worse is that not one of us is perfect. We all have done things we later regret. Seeing the futility — not wanting to expose themselves or their families, the best of our people often choose to stay out of politics.
What can we do about this absurd name calling? We can police ourselves. We can point out when it is going on, and we can suggest the author of such a post is in the wrong.
Here is an example. A poster at ANTI-BVBL gets carried away, and she starts attacking the Prince William County VA Tea Party. Supposedly, this event will involve a hate group, the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR). How do we know FAIR is a hate group? Well, a supposedly authoritative nonprofit group, the Southern Law Poverty Center (SLPC) says FAIR is a hate group. The SPLC put out reports (See here for an example. Here FAIR defends itself.). That, dear friends is all it takes to prove something to some people, a few nasty words. Hence it must so, and so anyone associated with the Prince William County VA Tea Party must be hateful too.
Anyway, ANTI-BVBL is usually better than this. So I left my comments, and others did the same. Please ask the poster to focus on the issues and to drop the name calling.
Tom,
I fully support your freedom to associate with the any group you want. But let’s get real dude, FAIR is a hate group.
The Southern Poverty Law Center’s analysis is more than “name calling”. These conclusions are not drawn cavalierly and the real guilt by association is FAIR in their financial supporters.
Particularly disturbing to me is Bob Marshall’s support of this event. FAIR has several connections with anti Catholic Church folks http://americasvoiceonline.org/page/content/fightfair/ (Bob’s Catholic faith is legend and forms the basis of several of his positions – death penalty excepted) which seems to be a disconnect for me about Bob.
I’ve always thought of him as a highly principled man (tho the principles we believe in are very much in opposition), but to support an event that has these folks involved is confusing to me.
Perhaps even more confusing are the people who are not associating with this event. Can a brother get more than one elected offical???
Supporting this kind of group only further minimizes the Republican’s ability to get back to some kind of reasonable party. The tent gets smaller and smaller.
Be well.
b
The SPLC is absolutely not a credible source of information about “hate groups”, which they don’t even define. Their research is shoddy, their reports are littered with errors, and it’s clear that the whole purpose behind efforts to wrongly smear people and organizations so they can have new boogeymen to point at when they’re raising their millions of dollars.
Rather than allow discussions on the issues, the SPLC and their antibvbl sycophants try to shut down the discussion by branding people as “haters”, without any credible support for their conclusion. Political correctness is bad, but this takes political correctness to an entirely different level of irresponsibility.
I invite people to look at the individuals speaking at the Tea Party and see what they’ve done and judge for themselves. They’ll find nothing that will corroborate these ridiculous smears.
Instead of asking about who voluntarily associates with FAIR, maybe folks should be asking who voluntarily associates themselves with antibvbl and actively endorses this sort of behavior. At least then we’re talking about individuals and the actions they’ve taken, rather than the tenuous and often inaccurate connections from person to person that somehow inscribe an indelible moral stain on their character.
Bruce – The first reference of your so-called America’s Voices online is the SLPC. That’s funny!
Frankly, I think Red Virginia has the right of it (no pun intended). All such accusations do is stifle debate. I wonder how often that is the intended purpose.
Using FAIR’s participation in a Tea Party to attack Bob Marshall is just plain stupid. You do little but shame yourself. Motives for your own possible bias are just too obvious.
Moreover, Marshall’s record indicates he is quite reasonable and honest. The problem most people can find with him is the fact he is stubbornly principled. Marshall won’t give up his principles just to get along with people who are willing to give up their principles.
Marshall calmly, carefully, and clearly explains his agenda. He does exactly what he says he will do when he is campaigning for public office, and that is why I am proud to lend him my support.
Tom,
My point on your post “Guilt by Association” is that the group is probably made up, in the main, of Marshall like beleivers. Again not my beleifs, but go for it.
However when I did a bit of surfing on the issue of “Hate Groups” and F.A.I.R. I was particulary struck by the references to Rosanna Pulido, a current field organizaer (not community organizer) for F.A.I.R. By no means is she a friend of the Catholic Church. She’s really said some horrible things. I’ve got to tell you that I would not be on a stage with someone who has vilified my faith community – except to debate them!
That’s my point about Bob. He is very principled (again not my valued principles, but his) and my sense is that his passion about some, of what I assume, are some of the primariy Tea Party issues overrode his awareness of the way his fellow stage member felt about his faith community.
If he didn’t know (and I doubt that because I think he’s one smart cookie) then he gets the “guilt by association label”, at least in my book.
I’m just saying…
Regardless, have a wonderful time at the party. I’ll be with my brothers and sisters at the NOVA Area Labor Federation 4th Picnic, after the Dale City Parade where I get my once a year reunion ride on a fire truck!
And your statement about me being stupid – well that really stifles my willingness to debate. But point taken – I’m stupid, Bob’s principled…
b
Bruce – When we accuse others, we inevitably subject ourselves to same scrutiny. Consider this verse.
Do you really think your associations could stand the same inspection you expect Bob Marshall to pass? It is easy to say they could, however, if we presume guilt, and you have to prove your innocence….
BTW – I did not say you are stupid. I said this kind of attack on your opponent is stupid, and it is. And because you are not stupid, you should know better.
Bruce – One more thought. Consider the irony. Remember from whence ANTI-BVBL got its name.
More than a couple of souls can tell you how easy it is to cite various websites that contain inaccurate and/or misleading information. Nonetheless, with such nonsense, it is possible to spin a coherent story that has little relation to the truth.
The unfortunate fact is that human beings — particularly with the Internet — spreads lies and filth just as readily as they spread truth and knowledge. Hence we are obligated to give each other the benefit of the doubt.
Before I called Marshall principled, you did. Did you do it just so you could contradict yourself?
FAIR is considered a hate group because the group was born of and financially supported by people who perpetuate eugenics (the idea that one can improve the human race by careful selection of those who mate and produce offspring and that certain races are superior to others, superior races being those that should be reproduces).
FAIR is also anti-legal-immigration and pro-population control.
Their whole belief system smacks of….here we go again….Hitler’s attempt to create an Aryan race.
I, too, was greatly disappointed that these people from Washington once again felt welcome to try to influence our local government. If we want solutions for problems in VA, then let’s get delegates who will fix those problems. The last thing we need is a group like FAIR trying to influence local and state policy.
I was also disappointed that the TEA party was held on July 4. I feel July 4 should be a celebration of independence and what we have achieved. We can TEA party and complain about taxation any day. Leave the 4th as a day of thanks.
“…superior races being those that should be reproduces).”
The word should be “reproducers.”
kgotthardt – That is awful. FAIR sounds like it belongs in the Democratic Party.
Have you ever heard of Planned Parenthood?
Frankly, I find all the accusations pointlessly judgmental. Most of the human race has beliefs of one sort or the other that I find repugnant. At the same time, I must admit that if I feel that way, then most of the human race must most like find some of my beliefs disagreeable.
This being so I see only one solution. As much as possible, we leave each other in peace. Otherwise, when we must resolve our disputes, we talk about the disputes. If we spend all our time talking about how much we hate each other, we will resolve anything. We will just start a war.
FAIR doesn’t like Catholics because the Catholic Church preaches against birth control, abortion, etc. From there we get hatred against segments of the population who have large numbers of children. First it was the Irish. Now it’s the Hispanics (those people referred to as “breeders” by some). Do you see where this garbage leads? It’s revolting.
If FAIR just left people alone, I wouldn’t have such a problem with them, but they don’t. They keep butting into our local government.
They need to go away and let VA figure itself out in a reasonable manner. We are perfectly capable of doing so without them and their baggage.
For the record, and I’m repeating myself, I hate abortion.
kgotthardt – Think about what you are saying. You don’t like freedom of speech? You?
I don’t have a problem with freedom of speech. I just don’t think we need these people in our government, and if we tell them “go back from whence you came,” we would be a lot better off.
They can spout off as much as they want. That doesn’t mean we have to invite them here.
Here’s another way to look at it. If we feel we have to invite groups like FAIR here to fix our problems, what does that say about our faith in our own leaders? We believe so much in our candidates that we feel we have to get some outside group with a particular agenda in here to fix our issues?
Our leaders should take it as an insult that local factions have invited FAIR to have as much influence and authority as they want. It’s like PWC leaders held up a big sign that said, “HELP! We have unhappy people here, and we don’t know how to handle it!”
kgotthardt — You are shooting the messenger. Even when the messenger originates the message, that is not right.
The people of this state have the right to invite whoever they wish. It is a free country. You also are allowed to cross state borders to propagandize as you wish.
FAIR is speaking out about immigration. That issue affects everyone in the country, not just Virginia. Your effort to silence FAIR suggests something. Instead of trying to shut FAIR up, you could try refuting FAIR’s arguments. Your choice suggests you lack faith in your own arguments.
Tom, I am not sure why you are saying I am trying to silence FAIR. Not only would an attempt to silence them be a violation of free speech, it would be a waste of time. I have neither enough duct tape nor ambition to lead such a crusade.
Like I said, they can do what they want, and so can anyone in the county. BUT, I think it would behoove us to fix our own problems. FAIR has WAY too much baggage associated with their take on immigration control, IMHO.
I read Sen. Ken C’s response to immigration on your blog, and I didn’t see any problem with his approach. He’s reasonable. He’s not some eugenics-touting-hating-stir-it-up group member. Give our own delegates a chance to do something before we invite in groups, especially those of questionable motives and tactics.
kgotthardt – When we engage in name calling, we do it to silence people.
FAIR was one of many participants at the Prince William County VA Tea Party. To denigrate the Tea Party and discourage participation, ANTI-BVBL picked out FAIR as extremist group. To distract from the real issues involved, ANTI-BVBL created a tempest in a teapot. There is nothing at all noble in such behavior.
Such twisted thinking is, unfortunately, something that most of us fall prey to from time to time. We are tempted, and sometimes we sin. Hopefully, you will soon repent and move onto something more productive.
kgotthardt – BTW. I am pleased find Sen. Ken C’s approach acceptable.
Repent? First of all, I am nothing but someone who posts once in a while on Anti. There is a myth out there that I am a site admin. This is, indeed, a myth.
Second, I have apologized to people whom I believed were racist but were just angry. It is too easy to miscommunicate online. And it is too easy to believe people are what their group represents (hence, “Guilty by Association”). I would caution people to look closely at their affiliations because for better or for worse, we are identified by our affiliations.
I would add that if the people I have apologized to aren’t willing to accept an apology for a misundertanding and a burst of anger on my own part (just as there have been about me), I can’t help that. If they want to hold a grudge, then fine. I do not, however, hold grudges for ridiculous things like a few juvenile blog comments and a few outbursts. It happens. The only difference is, I use my real name online while most of these people don’t. I take accountability while they do not. That is their choice.
However, I do not apologize for making the comparison between HSM (the group), Robert Duecaster and Greg Letiecq and their fellow mean-spirited, dangerous and toxic extremists to those who supported NAZI Germany and to Neo-Nazis. I do not apologize for saying I believe FAIR is a hate group. These are my beliefs, and I have every right to express them, just as they have their rights.
Our BOCS, with the exception of three members, has demonstrated their lack of respect for free speech which is only awarded to lobbyists, favorites and organized hate groups. They allow persecution of minorities, legal and illegally in this country. They endorse the BVBL nonsense and personal attacks. They don’t want a solution. They want a target. I’m a convenient one.
That is where I stand, and telling me to “repent” is an effort to shut me up about actions I feel are destructive and evil. Would you be so cavalier about telling anti-abortion folks to shut up? I think not.
I assure you, I will not “shut up.”
kgotthardt – I suspect Tom is missing the problem with you and the ANTI-BVBL folks. There is this old idiom about being unable to see the forest for the trees. Sometimes we get so focused on a detail we cannot see the big picture.
Within the general scheme of American politics, the immigration issue is small potatoes. That is your big issue, but most people do not care. Take a step back and look around. The Tea Parties have almost nothing to do with FAIR. At the Prince William Tea Party, the FAIR speaker was at the end of the agenda.
Illegal immigration angers people, but it scares relatively few. Few Americans fear immigrants. What caused the Tea Parties to start is fear. People are afraid our leaders are out of control. There is seemingly no effort to balance the budget, and the new administration and Congress are seizing powers that they have no right to have.
We risk losing our heritage of freedom. If we lose that, we lose that which makes America special. Our lives will become those of slaves.
kgotthardt – Did I call you evil or say you are a bad person? Since I cannot judge myself as better, of what use would that be?
Consider what I said. I said that the name calling should stop. As vile as you think FAIR may be, I have heard nothing illegal. What I heard from FAIR at the Tea Party seemed reasonable.
Although FAIR may or may not be despicable, FAIR has no real power except the right to speak. Can you and ANTI-BVBL counter FAIR’s arguments with arguments of your own? If the answer is yes, then why call FAIR names and automatically condemn anyone who associates with them? If not to silence and intimidate, what is the point?
OLE and Tom, what I don’t like is the kind of persecution that the FAIR folks propagate through their extreme tactics and roots in eugenics. They do it via their speeches, lobbying, collaborative efforts, etc. They get people like BVBL and buds to lead attacks against immigrant communities legal and illegal, and anyone who wants to help immigrants. You can disagree if you wish. That’s your choice, and I suspect we will have to agree to disagree here. I’ve got many arguments, put them out there, and discuss them ad nauseam. So I will not do it again.
Please remember, too, that Anti isn’t some “group.” It’s a blog. I’ve met only a handful of people from Anti on less than a handful of occasions. Contrary to popular belief, I really do not hang out and plan the demise of FAIR or BVBL with Anti admins. In fact, because I do not represent anyone when I speak about immigration, I am much more vulnerable than people who belong to groups. Hence, HSM/BVBL/BOCS can get away with whatever they want. But bullying reflects poorly on them. It’s cowardly at best.
As far as the tea party, outside of the fact that I dislike FAIR, my concern was the timing. I think the 4th should be reserved for celebration and thankfulness. Again, just my feeling on it. I’m pretty scared of our leaders, too. Believe me–the running deficit doesn’t thrill me.
I disagree that people aren’t afraid of immigrants, though. If you refer to illegal immigration as “an invasion” and you want to defend “our culture” and you get upset when you feel like a minority even if every immigrant is legal, you’re obviously scared and on the defensive. The psychology of this is an entirely separate discussion, though.
But, Mrs. Gotthardt – what does the 4th of July stand for? It had nothing to do with Thankfulness, but the exact same thing that the Tea parties are representing – freedom. Had this been a pro illegal immigration rally or a rally around 9500 Liberty or an “economic recovery” party thrown by 9500 Liberty, would you feel differently? I think you would, because it serves your purpose.
You really need to take a step back and look at what Tom posted. By calling names, you make yourself look both uneducated and someone who isn’t interested in debating the real issues. When I first (and last, thanks to you and your name calling) posted on Anti, you called me a bigot because I used the word Hispanic in my post. You told others to go back to the “slumholes” and called others Nazi’s, racists and other vile names. Can you prove anything that you are stating above? Is there a direct link that you can PROVE between FAIR and the BOCS? Because, if not, then you are simply being the bully that you state you aren’t. And you are hardly a “target”. You have been the most vocal and vile of the individuals associated with Anti. You have stated IN WRITING that PWC is the racist capital of the US. You have called leaders Nazi’s and made fun of private citizens children, one of whom has a disability. You make yourself a target.
Would you like to see the cost of illegal immigration on Prince William co and the nation as a whole? Simply go look at some of the houses that are foreclosed upon. A close friend of mine is a realtor and the stories that he tells me of houses that are set up for one family (hence the term SINGLE FAMILY) being divided up into 3 and 4 separate apartments. These same houses are now in foreclosure and trashed – he told me of one house in which the carpet was ripped out, the appliances literally ripped out of the walls, sinks and toilets smashed to pieces. How is it that individuals who were (and still are) here illegally and without any type of documentation were given loans of up to $500k? And now banks are floundering and houses are going to pot because of this.
Look at the schools and the health care systems – individuals that are here illegally and not paying into the system are draining it.
I fear the stories about illegal immigrants trashing housing make too much sense. Because the house they live in is not their own, renters are notoriously hard on housing. Would we have any reason to expect illegal immigrants to be more gentle on housing? Not likely.
Tom, these houses were owned – not rented. These are houses that are now turned back over to the banks to try and sell. I’ve been in some and it’s incredibly sad – appliances ripped from the walls, food left in the refrigerator, random furniture left.
Renters, regardless of status, are usually much more rough on houses. What is happening, though, is that individuals who are having their houses foreclosed upon are trashing them to “get back at the bank”. In reality, had the banks not been quite so greedy and not made “no document” loans, I don’t think we’d be in quite the mess that we are in now. Banks and mortgage brokers were giving loans based upon the last two paystubs and nothing more. Individuals who couldn’t prove a work history or even legal status were given large ARM loans. No SSN was required to get the loan. The predatory lenders are just as responsible for this mess as are those individuals who knew they couldn’t afford an ARM or a large home loan but took one anyway.
My husband and I were looking to buy a home 3 years ago. We spoke to a mortgage broker who “guaranteed” us a mortgage of $700k simply based upon our most recent paystubs. We knew that there was no way we would be able to afford that, but there are others out there that weren’t as sensible. And now we are all paying for it.
Well, Concerned, I am sorry you feel that way and sorry you think I would EVER make fun of ANY child, especially one with disabilities. I suspect you have fallen prey to the BVBL machine, and I also suspect you read very little of what I actaully write, including what I have written here. That’s really too bad. In any event, I hope you have a good day.
Did you, or did you not, at a picture of Greg L with his children in the newspaper, make a comment that “it made you sick to your stomach?”
And don’t tell me what I have or haven’t fell “prey” to. I have read what you have said. Several times. Please stop acting condescending.
You spend too much time worrying about BVBL.
“Had this been a pro illegal immigration rally or a rally around 9500 Liberty or an “economic recovery” party thrown by 9500 Liberty, would you feel differently? I think you would, because it serves your purpose.”
No. I was in Manassas with immigrants and everyone elese celebrating the 4th.
I am not pro-illegal immigration. I am pro-treat-people-fairly while we work out the kinks in the system. There is never any excuse for persecuting people and that is what is being done in this country.
We are taking our anger at the US Government out on individuals who have already suffered poverty and war and lord knows what else. If they have committed violent crimes, then yes, send them to jail. If they need to take care of their homes better, like anyone else in a neighborhood, then yes, address that in a civil manner. Otherwise, leave them alone. But some people refuse to do that.
Incidentally, have you ever seen me on a 9500Liberty movie? I think not.
While I am at it, let me say I admire 9500Liberty’s efforts, but I think some of the stereotypes about HSM’s members have sprung from those videos. Some members are just angry about neighborhood and government issues. Some are just anti-anyone-different. Most are scared.
The angry-about-neighborhood-issues members should leave the group. They are being associated with the likes of people I have mentioned in my postings not only because of the videos but because of the extremist and overtly hateful members who wish to inflict a truly anti-immigrant sentiment on the rest of us. These extremists take the whole conflict to a different level, a level we shouldn’t even think of approaching.
I could care less about 9500 Liberty videos – a bunch of propaganda, as far as I’m concerned.
Here’s my question – why are you for people being allowed to live here and not pay into the system? Don’t give me the song and dance about “well, they pay property taxes” or “they pay taxes when they buy something” or “they voluntarily pay their taxes”. If they want to live here, they need to become citizens and pay for the services they are getting for free right now. But that is the problem – because they are getting WIC/Food stamps/education/health services/housing for free, what incentive IS there for them to become citizens? On the flip of that, if I were to go to Mexico/El Salvador and live there, would I have access as a non-citizen to those that are citizens?
I, for one, am not scared, or angry, or anything else you think. I’m just tired of paying for others that are here illegally. I’m tired of seeing my taxes raised to cover expenses occurred by individuals who are not citizens. I’m tired of our economy continuing to suffer because we have become the babysitters to the world’s poor. Instead of these individuals cleaning up their own mess, we have to do it – at OUR expense.
Persecuting citizens? By asking them to obey the law? I guess, in your eyes, I can drive whatever speed limit I want to and then cry persecution. Or maybe I’ll refuse to pay my taxes and cry persecution.
I wish our country would take the stance Italy is – no more harboring. The new law in Italy is that if you are there illegally, you are deported. If you are harboring illegal aliens, you are jailed. If you have a child in the country and you aren’t a citizen, you child isn’t automatically granted citizenship. That would take care of quite a few of our own problems here if we adopted that stance.
I think that your motives are more personal in nature (i.e. because you work in ESOL) than you’d like to admit.
Concerned, the more I read your comments, the more I know you have never fully read mine anywhere.
If you would like to truly have a conversation, you may do the following:
1. Put the quote in question with a corresponding link that proves what you are saying is true.
2. Email your findings to katherine.gotthardt@gmail.com
3. I will then locate the comments that further explain the comment you are taking out of context and email my quotes.
For public record, I don’t teach ESOL. I teach online for various colleges and post-secondary institutions and have done so for a long time.
Concerned About Amnesty – I wish the only problem was predatory lenders, but I am afraid predatory lenders had little to do with this mess. The reason people were getting loans so easily is that the government insisted on it. When a bank lends money to people it knows nothing about, there is no way to make money — unless government is involved (see this post). That is because there is no way to insure you will get paid back — unless government is involved. But politicians care very little about getting paid back. They are buying votes with somebody else’s money.