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	<title>Comments on: RESPONSE TO A COMMENT # 2</title>
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	<link>http://citizentom.com/2008/12/18/response-to-a-comment-2/</link>
	<description>Conservative commentary from Gainesville, Virginia</description>
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		<title>By: Halt and Catch Fire &#187; Blog Archive &#187; An insightful discussion [CitizenTom]</title>
		<link>http://citizentom.com/2008/12/18/response-to-a-comment-2/#comment-14939</link>
		<dc:creator>Halt and Catch Fire &#187; Blog Archive &#187; An insightful discussion [CitizenTom]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 07:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citizentom.wordpress.com/?p=3297#comment-14939</guid>
		<description>[...] Over the last few days, I&#8217;ve had a very productive discussion with a blogger, CitizenTom, about fundamentalism, secularism, and the role of religion in government and vice-versa.  Related posts are here (original post), here, and here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Over the last few days, I&#8217;ve had a very productive discussion with a blogger, CitizenTom, about fundamentalism, secularism, and the role of religion in government and vice-versa.  Related posts are here (original post), here, and here. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: kgotthardt</title>
		<link>http://citizentom.com/2008/12/18/response-to-a-comment-2/#comment-14887</link>
		<dc:creator>kgotthardt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 20:51:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citizentom.wordpress.com/?p=3297#comment-14887</guid>
		<description>Is it force if we vote in the people who decide how much money to take from us?  Supposedly, government should be redistributing that money to make our lives better.  If it weren&#039;t for taxes, for example, we wouldn&#039;t have military.

Bad government wastes our taxes.  Good government uses our taxes wisely.  Good government finds creative solutions so there is a balance between what we give as tax payers and what we receive as citizens.  When that balance is disturbed, we have things like recession and legalized thievery.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it force if we vote in the people who decide how much money to take from us?  Supposedly, government should be redistributing that money to make our lives better.  If it weren&#8217;t for taxes, for example, we wouldn&#8217;t have military.</p>
<p>Bad government wastes our taxes.  Good government uses our taxes wisely.  Good government finds creative solutions so there is a balance between what we give as tax payers and what we receive as citizens.  When that balance is disturbed, we have things like recession and legalized thievery.</p>
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		<title>By: Citizen Tom</title>
		<link>http://citizentom.com/2008/12/18/response-to-a-comment-2/#comment-14873</link>
		<dc:creator>Citizen Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 02:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citizentom.wordpress.com/?p=3297#comment-14873</guid>
		<description>kgotthardt - We each approach life in our own way.  There are Truths and there is wisdom, but God permits us to find both in our own way.  It is people who seem to be the control freaks.

I think your fears about public education are misplaced.  Sit down in a chair and consider all you the things you buy, things such as food, clothing, shelter, transportation, education, energy, and so forth.  What happens the more the government gets involved?  

We usually think of voting as a matter of electing public officials.  However, every dollar you spend is also a vote.  When you have a choice between products, that vote means something.  When you don&#039;t have a choice, all you can do is withhold your vote.  Sometimes you have to buy.  You need the product, and there is only one source.  Then you pay through the nose.

Public education is monopoly. We pay taxes to support it.  We are not even allowed the option of withholding our vote. Government takes our money by force.  What free market entrepreneur or nonprofit  can get away with that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>kgotthardt &#8211; We each approach life in our own way.  There are Truths and there is wisdom, but God permits us to find both in our own way.  It is people who seem to be the control freaks.</p>
<p>I think your fears about public education are misplaced.  Sit down in a chair and consider all you the things you buy, things such as food, clothing, shelter, transportation, education, energy, and so forth.  What happens the more the government gets involved?  </p>
<p>We usually think of voting as a matter of electing public officials.  However, every dollar you spend is also a vote.  When you have a choice between products, that vote means something.  When you don&#8217;t have a choice, all you can do is withhold your vote.  Sometimes you have to buy.  You need the product, and there is only one source.  Then you pay through the nose.</p>
<p>Public education is monopoly. We pay taxes to support it.  We are not even allowed the option of withholding our vote. Government takes our money by force.  What free market entrepreneur or nonprofit  can get away with that?</p>
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		<title>By: kgotthardt</title>
		<link>http://citizentom.com/2008/12/18/response-to-a-comment-2/#comment-14872</link>
		<dc:creator>kgotthardt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 21:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citizentom.wordpress.com/?p=3297#comment-14872</guid>
		<description>In terms of why we are afraid of dismantling public education, my &quot;fear&quot; is that the greedy would take over, charge ridiculous rates and price the middle to lower classes right out of education.  There would be no consumer rights.  I don&#039;t trust organizations to do the right thing in this case.  I suppose this makes me cynical.

As it stands, at the very least, we can always protest and sue the government if we don&#039;t like what they are doing.  We can demand change and eventually attain it.  We can&#039;t do the same if we are under the thumb of a private entity that will just tell us to take it somewhere else.  Sometimes, there is nowhere else to go.  That&#039;s a problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In terms of why we are afraid of dismantling public education, my &#8220;fear&#8221; is that the greedy would take over, charge ridiculous rates and price the middle to lower classes right out of education.  There would be no consumer rights.  I don&#8217;t trust organizations to do the right thing in this case.  I suppose this makes me cynical.</p>
<p>As it stands, at the very least, we can always protest and sue the government if we don&#8217;t like what they are doing.  We can demand change and eventually attain it.  We can&#8217;t do the same if we are under the thumb of a private entity that will just tell us to take it somewhere else.  Sometimes, there is nowhere else to go.  That&#8217;s a problem.</p>
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		<title>By: kgotthardt</title>
		<link>http://citizentom.com/2008/12/18/response-to-a-comment-2/#comment-14871</link>
		<dc:creator>kgotthardt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 21:33:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citizentom.wordpress.com/?p=3297#comment-14871</guid>
		<description>Theoretically, all blog discussions must be personal because they are either derived from our (personal) interest or our experiences.

Belief systems and opinions are rooted in our pasts.  They don&#039;t just fall out of the sky.  This is why I believe the personal is important.  For example, I like knowing that a political candidate has been a veteran, and that is why he/she is a proponent of veterans&#039; rights.  It helps me/us to understand where this person is coming from, why he/she believes these things are important, and what he/she would like to do about the issues.  I am all about motives and the why. 

This also works in the negative.  If I am angry at those who run (and manipulate)higher education (which I have been at various times) there is usually a reason why, and those reasons are usually based on my experiences and beliefs.  Many people share these experiences.  Thus there is a common bond.

In any event, I don&#039;t expect you to answer personal questions on a blog if you don&#039;t want to.  But the above is why I bring up the question of whether or not you ever had children in public schools--I&#039;m not just trying to be nosy :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Theoretically, all blog discussions must be personal because they are either derived from our (personal) interest or our experiences.</p>
<p>Belief systems and opinions are rooted in our pasts.  They don&#8217;t just fall out of the sky.  This is why I believe the personal is important.  For example, I like knowing that a political candidate has been a veteran, and that is why he/she is a proponent of veterans&#8217; rights.  It helps me/us to understand where this person is coming from, why he/she believes these things are important, and what he/she would like to do about the issues.  I am all about motives and the why. </p>
<p>This also works in the negative.  If I am angry at those who run (and manipulate)higher education (which I have been at various times) there is usually a reason why, and those reasons are usually based on my experiences and beliefs.  Many people share these experiences.  Thus there is a common bond.</p>
<p>In any event, I don&#8217;t expect you to answer personal questions on a blog if you don&#8217;t want to.  But the above is why I bring up the question of whether or not you ever had children in public schools&#8211;I&#8217;m not just trying to be nosy <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Citizen Tom</title>
		<link>http://citizentom.com/2008/12/18/response-to-a-comment-2/#comment-14869</link>
		<dc:creator>Citizen Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 20:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citizentom.wordpress.com/?p=3297#comment-14869</guid>
		<description>kgotthardt - Kids in the public school?  I rarely talk about my personal life in my blog.  That is not what this blog is about.  Just because I think something is right or something is good for me does not make it right. What happens when I bring me into a discussion is that I make the discussion personal instead of objective.

We do not have school choice.  What we have is an incomplete public school monopoly.  Those parents with sufficient resources and gumption can avoid sending their children to private schools or home school their children.  In other words, only the rich have school choice.  

Nonetheless, advocates for the public school system say over and over and over again that we have a choice.  That is just plain dishonest.

Initially, small communities banded together to hire teachers.  Because it was the easiest thing to do, the small community schools became bigger as communities grew.  Then the state stepped in to fund and regulate.  Now Federal Government leaders, seeing the opportunity expand their powers and influence are stepping in.  That is corrupt.  The Federal Government has no constitutional authority. There is no need for Federal Government involvement.

Why do we continue with the public school system?  I think the answers are inertia, fear, and greed.  Initially, we had a need.  Frontier societies had to maximize resources, but now we have more people.  With our much larger population, private schools would provide much needed competition.  We have replaced need with fear.  We are afraid parents with other beliefs will make the &quot;wrong&quot; choices instead of the &quot;right&quot; choices.  We also have greed.  There are always people who benefit from the status quo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>kgotthardt &#8211; Kids in the public school?  I rarely talk about my personal life in my blog.  That is not what this blog is about.  Just because I think something is right or something is good for me does not make it right. What happens when I bring me into a discussion is that I make the discussion personal instead of objective.</p>
<p>We do not have school choice.  What we have is an incomplete public school monopoly.  Those parents with sufficient resources and gumption can avoid sending their children to private schools or home school their children.  In other words, only the rich have school choice.  </p>
<p>Nonetheless, advocates for the public school system say over and over and over again that we have a choice.  That is just plain dishonest.</p>
<p>Initially, small communities banded together to hire teachers.  Because it was the easiest thing to do, the small community schools became bigger as communities grew.  Then the state stepped in to fund and regulate.  Now Federal Government leaders, seeing the opportunity expand their powers and influence are stepping in.  That is corrupt.  The Federal Government has no constitutional authority. There is no need for Federal Government involvement.</p>
<p>Why do we continue with the public school system?  I think the answers are inertia, fear, and greed.  Initially, we had a need.  Frontier societies had to maximize resources, but now we have more people.  With our much larger population, private schools would provide much needed competition.  We have replaced need with fear.  We are afraid parents with other beliefs will make the &#8220;wrong&#8221; choices instead of the &#8220;right&#8221; choices.  We also have greed.  There are always people who benefit from the status quo.</p>
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		<title>By: kgotthardt</title>
		<link>http://citizentom.com/2008/12/18/response-to-a-comment-2/#comment-14868</link>
		<dc:creator>kgotthardt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 19:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citizentom.wordpress.com/?p=3297#comment-14868</guid>
		<description>&quot;is&quot; key, that is.

Tom, I know you don&#039;t talk about yourself, but I&#039;m curious if you had kids in public school at any time.  I went to both public and Catholic schools, so I&#039;ve got a bit of personal perspective here.  My kids are in public schools for many reasons, and I don&#039;t think they are being hurt, so long as they are involved with our church, practicing their beliefs, and learning the best from those around them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;is&#8221; key, that is.</p>
<p>Tom, I know you don&#8217;t talk about yourself, but I&#8217;m curious if you had kids in public school at any time.  I went to both public and Catholic schools, so I&#8217;ve got a bit of personal perspective here.  My kids are in public schools for many reasons, and I don&#8217;t think they are being hurt, so long as they are involved with our church, practicing their beliefs, and learning the best from those around them.</p>
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		<title>By: kgotthardt</title>
		<link>http://citizentom.com/2008/12/18/response-to-a-comment-2/#comment-14867</link>
		<dc:creator>kgotthardt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 19:11:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citizentom.wordpress.com/?p=3297#comment-14867</guid>
		<description>LN, I agree with you here and have said something similar many times to Tom.  Tom, you have very specific beliefs about education which I respect.  I think as LN points out, though, choice in education as key.  And parents DO have a say in what their children learn in public school IF they choose to scream at the School Board :)

--I don’t like the idea of politicians dictating what our children learn, but that’s the reason we have the choice between public school and private or home school. If one disagrees with something, such as the teaching of evolution (or on the flip-side, the teaching of intelligent design), he may relocate his children to another school or teach his children at home. In public school, which is funded by the state, exercise of religion must not be a mandatory activity, nor must it be officially endorsed by the school. That opinion, I hold to with the utmost conviction, because of the number of people it affects, and because it leads to alienation and hostility in a school setting.--</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LN, I agree with you here and have said something similar many times to Tom.  Tom, you have very specific beliefs about education which I respect.  I think as LN points out, though, choice in education as key.  And parents DO have a say in what their children learn in public school IF they choose to scream at the School Board <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>&#8211;I don’t like the idea of politicians dictating what our children learn, but that’s the reason we have the choice between public school and private or home school. If one disagrees with something, such as the teaching of evolution (or on the flip-side, the teaching of intelligent design), he may relocate his children to another school or teach his children at home. In public school, which is funded by the state, exercise of religion must not be a mandatory activity, nor must it be officially endorsed by the school. That opinion, I hold to with the utmost conviction, because of the number of people it affects, and because it leads to alienation and hostility in a school setting.&#8211;</p>
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		<title>By: kgotthardt</title>
		<link>http://citizentom.com/2008/12/18/response-to-a-comment-2/#comment-14866</link>
		<dc:creator>kgotthardt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 19:08:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citizentom.wordpress.com/?p=3297#comment-14866</guid>
		<description>Tom I was more referring to evangelicals who push their religion down people&#039;s throats, not talking about their faith.  Jesus said &quot;Don&#039;t keep your faith under a bushel basked.&quot;  I would expect most Christians, then, to discuss their beliefs fairly openly within certain contexts.  But Jesus didn&#039;t try to force people to believe in him or his word.

I was also referring to those who condemn people who do NOT believe as they do.  &quot;Judge not lest you be judged.&quot;  

I hope you see the distinction I was trying to make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom I was more referring to evangelicals who push their religion down people&#8217;s throats, not talking about their faith.  Jesus said &#8220;Don&#8217;t keep your faith under a bushel basked.&#8221;  I would expect most Christians, then, to discuss their beliefs fairly openly within certain contexts.  But Jesus didn&#8217;t try to force people to believe in him or his word.</p>
<p>I was also referring to those who condemn people who do NOT believe as they do.  &#8220;Judge not lest you be judged.&#8221;  </p>
<p>I hope you see the distinction I was trying to make.</p>
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		<title>By: Citizen Tom</title>
		<link>http://citizentom.com/2008/12/18/response-to-a-comment-2/#comment-14865</link>
		<dc:creator>Citizen Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 18:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citizentom.wordpress.com/?p=3297#comment-14865</guid>
		<description>LN - Thank you for your comments.  I replied because I thought your comments were well considered.

I would just leave you with this thought.  There are times we have to be against something, but we should not let what we are against dominate our thinking.  What is far more important is what we are for.  

What is brilliant about our society is that we each have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  The more power we give government to stifle the choices of others, the more power we give government to stifle our own choices.  If we want the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that means that we must allow others the right to make bad choices and fail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LN &#8211; Thank you for your comments.  I replied because I thought your comments were well considered.</p>
<p>I would just leave you with this thought.  There are times we have to be against something, but we should not let what we are against dominate our thinking.  What is far more important is what we are for.  </p>
<p>What is brilliant about our society is that we each have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  The more power we give government to stifle the choices of others, the more power we give government to stifle our own choices.  If we want the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that means that we must allow others the right to make bad choices and fail.</p>
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