AMNESTY AND ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION
Good Fences Make Good Neighbors
In my last post on the immigration issue, I pointed out how we could reach an agreement on what to do about illegal immigration. Nonetheless, we still have millions of people in our country illegally. Do we really want to send them ALL back to their home nations? There are moral reasons not to force them to leave, and there are economic reasons not to force them to leave.
There is also another issue. How should we decide whether someone should be allow to come and stay in the USA? One answer is that they have a job, but that really does not address whether an immigrant would make a good citizen. What does? Well, of course we do not want folks with a criminal record. Is there anything else? Yes, we want them to be able to talk to us.
Because it is difficult to learn a second language, that is why it is better if immigrants learn English BEFORE they come here.
The English language problem also takes care of the amnesty issue. For much for the same reasons Henryk A. Kowalczyk has given (here), I also do not have much use for quotas. I do, however, think people ought to pass both oral and written English tests before they are allowed to get a job here. If someone is going to come to our country with the intention of staying, why should we learn their language?
If an illegal immigrant has been in the USA for years, then they should know how to speak and write English. If they cannot pass both oral and written tests appropriate for high school English class, is there any good reason why they should not be required to go back to their home country? If they cannot speak English, where is the evidence that they came here to stay?
Should we require illegal immigrants to go back to their home country and apply for citizenship? No. That would be waste of money. Should we be in a big hurry to give an English test every illegal immigrant. No. That just means the tests would not be administered properly. However, getting serious about the English language requirement would provide the basis for a compromise that would make almost everybody happy. Well…almost everybody. A serious English language requirement may not make the employers who hire illegal immigrants to do jobs Americans will not do (i.e., slave labor) happy.
It is too easy to cheat and prove you have been in the USA for couple of years. On the other hand, we ought to be able to verify whether or not someone can speak English. If we combine a high school level English oral and written test with the plan below (from here), we can reach a national compromise. Seriously! It might even be possible with the leadership we have in Washington D.C. these days.
1. We need to do whatever it takes to secure the border.
2. We need to give everyone a tamper-proof ID. This ID should be required for employment.
3. We need to punish employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants. Of course, we can fine and jail employers. However, the most effective trick would be not allowing employers to write off the wages they pay to illegal immigrants on their taxes.
The critical thing for me is to not give those who came to this country illegal citizenship and the right to vote. If they just want to stay here to work for some period of time, fine. Give them 90 days (or whatever is logistically reasonable) to register so we know how they are and let them stay for 3-5-7 years, whatever is appropriate, and have them employed legally. Payroll taxes that they pay would be considered the price of admission and these workers would not be eligible for Soc Sec.
But to allow them to cut the line and then be given citizenship would be a travesty. If someone is here illegally and wants to become and American citizen they can go back home and get in line.
Ted, I totally agree with your idea of a work visa for those here illegally. This would be a great start in addition to border security and identification.
I don’t think citizenship would just be “given.” There would have to be some kind of waiting period just like everyone else has, as you point out. Eventually, if these folks DO become citizens, then they should have the right to vote because they will have earned that right through service. Service takes on many forms.
Tom, I am so relieved to hear you say, “Do we really want to send them ALL back to their home nations? There are moral reasons not to force them to leave, and there are economic reasons not to force them to leave.” Some of us who have been labeled “Socialists” have been saying this forever without anyone listening, probably because extremists have taken over the conversation. I also consider open borders extreme at this point because I don’t think our country can handle it for security and economy reasons.
We NEED to get our immigrants more opportunity to learn English. Unfortunately, our BOCS Chair and Vice Chair have thwarted these efforts at every turn, and in public. What kind of system is it that works against the public opinion that immigrants, no matter what their status, should learn English?
UNLESS ILLEGAL INVADERS HAVE LEARNED TO READ WRITE, AND SPEAK FLUENTLY….THEN THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO VALID REASON THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO STAY HERE, NONE…!!!
ANOTHER REQUIREMENT IS THAT THEY HAVE HELD A JOB FOR 5 YEARS, THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE WORTHWHILE TO BECOME CITIZENS, THOSE THAT HAVE PUT AN AFFORT TOWARD CITIZENSHIP….
THE REAL TROUBLING PART TO ME IS THOSE POOR PERSONS WAITING IN LINE FOR AS MIUCH AS 14 YEARS TO COME HERE , THOSE WHO ALREADY READ, WRITE , AND SPEAK OUR LANGUAGE….WE ARE VERY RUDELY CUTTING THEMOFF…IT IS NOWHERE CLOSE TO BEING FAIR….
THE DAMN ‘DEMO’ CONTROLLED CONGRESS IS THE TRUE CULPRIT HERE, THEY ARE PAID OFF BY BIG COMPANY LOBBYISTS TO LEAVE THE ILLEGALS ALONE , FOR THEIR CHEAP LABOR HAS EARNED BIG BUSINESS $ 1,3 TRILLION
SINCE 2002….
SAD THAT THOSE WE , THE PEOPLE …HAVE SENT TO CONGRESS HAVE TURNED THEIR BACKS ON US….THEY WILL ALL BE REMEMBERED COME RE-ELECTION….
VOTE NOT, FOR PARTY LINES , JUST VOTE OUT THOSE POLITICAL “WHORES” WHO HAVE SOLD US DOWN THE RIVER….
IT IS THE ONLY WAY WE WILL EVER GET BACK OUR WORLD, INSTEAD OF THOSE THAT FAILED US ARE GETTING VERY RICH….
If historical trends follow their present course, our economy will become ever more tightly bound with those to the south of us. Eventually, we will all want the borders barriers let down as much as possible. However, that is not currently practical.
What is obvious is that the current situation is undesirable, and our politicians are being intractable. So the citizenry has to put together an overwhelming consensus. That is why I have suggested what I have suggested. I tried to put together a list of tactics that deal with the problems that most irk people.
Ted – I do not think we need guest workers. These guests as second class citizens would be too easily exploited. In addition, once their time was up, they would most likely either become legal citizens or illegal immigrants. After people have been here 5-7 years, we are not going to be able to easily send them home. This will be their home. That is why I proposed an upfront English language requirement. If people want to come here or stay here, make them work for it. Learning a second language is work.
kgotthardt – You lost me. What does our government have to do with teaching illegal immigrants English? Do you want to tax your fellow citizens to pay for the instruction of people who are not in this country legally? Think for minute about what taxation involves. When people do not pay their taxes, the government can seize their property and throw them in jail. Oddly, the government seems much less reluctant to do that than it is to throw illegal immigrants out of the country.
jer mynor — I agree the problem is our leadership, and we have little reason to coddle illegal immigrants. They break our law just by being here. Nonetheless, here they are, and some of them have made this country their home. My attitude is that those who have made it their business to learn our language deserve our consideration and mercy.
Our immigration quotas are arbitrary, and it is not apparent what purpose they serve. I think we should drop them and just charge new immigrants a stiff processing fee. What matters is whether a new immigrant can get a decent job and properly assimilate. If a new immigrant knows how to speak and write English, I think that says something concrete about them.
“kgotthardt – You lost me. What does our government have to do with teaching illegal immigrants English?”
I am referring to the way the immigration resolution scared off legal immigrants who wished to learn English. Then, our BOCS chair brags about it when neither he nor anyone else knows what citizen status these students held (never mind that he is bragging about having scared away CHILDREN and their families…this is unpardonable IMHO).
If you want people to learn Engish, then let them learn it.
Furthermore, public adult education classes require that students PAY for their courses and their books out of pocket. So there is no risk of an “illegal” using tax money in these programs. The measures being used to chase off these “illegals” and label them as tax-abusers are unwarranted and, I would say, immoral.
kgotthardt – If illegal immigrants want to learn English, they can do it in another county. They can move a “sanctuary” and feel quite safe.
If we want a solution, we have to pressure Congress. What our BOCS is doing is applying pressure.
Politics is rough. When you break a law, it should be no surprise that it gets rougher. Illegals immigrants have no right to expect to be treated as our honored guests, and they know it.
Stop getting mad at the wrong people. Stirrup and Stewart are actually doing what they said they would do. The villains are the liars in Congress.
“The critical thing for me is to not give those who came to this country illegal citizenship and the right to vote.”
“But to allow them to cut the line and then be given citizenship would be a travesty.”
Ted, half of all foreign-born Californians who are legal residents started out as illegal immigrants. Additionally, many, many American citizens have parents who are/were illegal immigrants. California is the eight biggest economy in the world. We’re doing just fine.
Tom, you’re making too much of this learning English requirement. We’re learning English, trust me. I was brought to this country illegally when I was ten, and I think I speak English alright. And I’m not that special really. Tom, do you support the Dream Act? Obviously, anyone it would apply to has learned English.
I think americans were led to believe that the country
had limited resources and that increasing the
population beyond 220 million would destroy
the environment and use up all the natural resources.
Zero Population Growth was promoted starting in the 1960’s to prevent that from hapenning. The only growth in the population is from immigration which
has added about 100 million to the U.S. population.
The U.S economy never stops growing.
Americans need to have larger families and
forget about Zero Population Growth.
“Stirrup and Stewart are actually doing what they said they would do.”
But for WHAT? Their focus should be on this county; but Stewart in particular spends all his time in front of cameras advertising his own agenda.
He is a newcomer here. Just a few months after his election, he wanted to run for Attorney General. He doesn’t care about our county. He cares about appeasing a group of anti-immigrants and outright bigots so he can put us on the map. He has done that all right…we are the mockery of the nation. Example? In Utah, the United Way has declared our county a “what NOT to do.” A blogger buddy of mine has heard of OUR bigotry. He is in England! The Native Americans are hating us, the religious community is unhappy with us, and we’ve earned a visit from the Civil Rights Commission. How absolutely humiliating!
Stewart and Stirrup both support HSM, a radical group whose policies come from FAIR–a hate group! I don’t know how you can defend that, Tom. They are killing us economically and publicly as they spend OUR money on THEIR agendas.
“half of all foreign-born Californians who are legal residents started out as illegal immigrants. Additionally, many, many American citizens have parents who are/were illegal immigrants. California is the eight biggest economy in the world. We’re doing just fine.”
Presumably those foreign born individuals who came here illegally and are now citizens got that way because of the amnesty in the 80s. That set quite a precedence, didn’t it?
And with regard to the children of illegals becoming citizens, well, the Constitutional amendment that supposedly allows that was intended to give citizenship to former slaves and their children born after the civil war, not to children to people who are here illegally.
And as far as California goes, I wonder 1) why so many people are heading for NV, AZ and UT, and 2) when it will go completely bankrupt because of all the incredible amounts of money the state government is spending.
KG, take a deep breath. How are we the “mockery of a nation?” I work in another county and I can tell you that almost nobody who lives outside PWC knows or care about the resolution.
The mockery is when others come to our country, thumb their nose at our rules, yet try to cloak themselves in our Constitution to defend themselves.
Stirrup and Stewart are doing what a majority of the residents of PWC want – the law enforced. Your anger is misplaced and you need to tone it down. FAIR is only categorized as a hate group by SPLC, and only by SPLC. I have issue believing that Greg is whispering in Stewart and Stirrup’s ear, as you are saying.
As for adult students paying for classes, I looked at PWC’s website and the average cost was stated as $110 for tuition. Even if there was a class of 20 students, that would barely cover the cost of the teacher, much less operating costs, administration costs, texts, etc. Who is expected to make up the difference?
Law enforcement isn’t the issue. If it were, the 287g program could have been implemented a long time ago. The police have ALWAYS had the authority to check citizen status of people arrested. My complaint isn’t law enforcement. It’s scare tactics, media hype, and failure to listen to everyone. Whenever people say “well, the majority of PWC wanted this,” they refer to a select group and emails from across the country, NOT our county. We know from a FOIA that the bulk of the emails sent in support of the resolution were sent from the same people and from interest groups outside the county. There was NEVER a vote put to the county. If there were and the resolution passed by popular vote, I truly would not have as much issue as I do with it.
Furthermore, you might FOIA emails and check out CS/JS’s interactions with HSM and GL. They are a cozy little group force feeding the rest of us with THEIR agendas.
As to teachers and tuition…..adult educators make little money. The students pay for their books. The school buildings already exist. The program could easily pay for itself, plus there are grants given for these programs. I am not sure what “difference” you mean but you seem to think adult ed is all about serving “illegals.” That’s one of those perceptions that makes it bad for EVREYONE. But my real point was not to discuss school finances (not my area in the least). It was to discuss one of the loudest complaints we hear is “well, THEY don’t want to learn English.” Hmmm. So let’s make sure “they” are so scared, no matter who “they” are, that “they” don’t show up to school? No. THAT is wrong.
Thumbing their noses at our rules…..I’m not sure who these people are. The immigrants I know come here to work and work hard.
I am certainly in favor of the 287G program. No one wants criminals in their communities. I don’t like the sneaking, the bullying, and the lying that accompanied the Resolution, which sort of came to real life with a whimper, instead of a bang.
Katherine is correct. The 287g program was already in effect before the Immigration Resolution was first introduced and passed. 287g is good. The resolution is just something that should never have happened. It cost us over 4 million dollars as a county and we really have nothing more than we had with the 287g program other than old illegal hispanic folks can’t ride the blue bird senior trip bus.
Sorry….I get really frustrated with this topic and the local players.
KG,
I can assure you that I know quite a bit about how the public schools are run. For example, even though the schools are already built, there are still costs associated with using the building – for example, electric, maintenance, janitorial staff, etc. There are administrative costs associated with running adult ed – record keeping, directors, supervisor, etc. I have worked both night school and adult ed – I’m not saying that teachers of night school or adult ed get paid a huge amount, but if I remember correctly (and this was over 5 years ago), the stipend was close to $2,000. If the teachers are also full time employees, then you also need to factor in other costs, such as insurance coverage and retirement.
If you look at my comment, I never said anything about adult ed existing to serve “illegals”. Please don’t put words in my mouth to serve your cause.
There are several avenues for individuals who want to learn English to do so – many churches offer ESOL classes for free. And I’m confused as to who has been “scaring” away people from adult education.
As for those who thumb their nose at our laws – a prime example is Mr. Fernadez and his sign in Manassas. If that is not a prime example of someone who feels that laws do not apply to him, I’m not sure of how else to convince you.
My understanding is that adult ed teachers are paid hourly.
I wasn’t suggesting YOU think schools just serve illegals. I was paraphrasing “those things people say.”
Mr. F. is a legal citizen engaging in civil disobedience. I’m not saying it’s the right thing to do, but it has been done in this country for a looooooong time.
I could go on and on about the policy in PWC and how it has thwarted attempts at assimilation, but frankly, I’m tired of the whole discussion. If you want the longer version along with the full scope of who is scaring whom away, see antibvbl.net. It’s nothing personal. I’m just worn out.
ss,
i recently read your blog in which i was browiseing through to find information on step to become a citizen. im a 19 mexican american high school graduated. the reason of my search is becuase i have many friends who came to this country illgeally at a very young age. accepting the american life they grew up in the american society. some which have forgotten their spanish language and graduated with honor roll. i understand the whole situation about the imigrantion probelm beause eventhough im a natural born citizen i have the face of cactus. i sometimes find it hard to see many of my friends who are very intellegent high school graduate with honor roll lived here since the age of three be denied a job, college aplication and can’t even do the simplest things an average american can do. such as drive a vehical since they cant apply for a licenses or open a bank account finace for a car get an apartment etc. as i move on with my life and join the military go to college and open so many door of opportunity my friends are stuck in a situatuion they never asked for. i always tell go apply for a visa or a gren card show them records that u have been here for so long, but the fear of being deported is always their. the fear of them being deported to a country they have no clue about because all they know is america. imagine someone being deported who spoke english are their life in mexico, how would they find work and establish themselvesm, they would feel aleinaited. my question to you is how is the american government going to treat these types of people? and what are the steps on naturalizing these types of people and if there is already a process what is it?
stephen silva – Would you have me make apologies for the choices of others? Why are they here? Who brought them here?
The sins of parents are visited upon their children. Such is the nature of things.
Can your friends speak and write English at a high school level? Do they have clean records? Those are the things I would require for illegal immigrants to stay here.
I am in favor of amnesty and illegal immigrants
Phil the Beak – I suppose you think those against amnesty and illegal immigration (not illegal immigrants) will be outraged by the mere statement of your contrary opinion. Since you did not bother to explain why you hold your opinion, I expect most will react with pity.